November 29th, game number 18.
That was the date and the game number last year in which the OKC Thunder won their second game. That’s pretty cool.
The game tonight was really surreal if you were a Thunder fan last year and watched most of the games. It was like watching an old fashioned slugout slugfest between two defensive minded Eastern Conference teams. It was like the Pistons of old against the Cavaliers of old. This is not the Thunder of last year, and hey, that’s a good thing!
I didn’t feel real good about the direction of the game through the first quarter. The Thunder starters were getting manhandled to open up. The Thunder didn’t get to the line at all in the first, big Ben Wallace had 5 boards and a block, and all of the Thunder starters were looking pretty stinky offensively. Defensively they were getting after it and giving good effort, but they weren’t getting stops. When Brooks began to trickle in the bench, things began to change for the better.
James Harden showed some of his ball handling wizardry beginning late in the first and carrying over into the second By the time he came out in the middle of the second he had 5 assists and a ” +10″ after his name in the box score. He was bringing the ball up the court some and was like a second point guard running the pick and roll very smoothly with Collison (who set some fierce screens on the Pistons). Harden got a nice “welcome to the NBA” message when he tried to drive on Kwame Brown of all people, who nicely put his shot into the seats. But there is no denying Harden has great court vision and expert passing ability- all the reasons most of us Thunder fans were praying for him on draft night.
Also in the second Etan Thomas and Nick Collison were like two mean hungry pit bulls in the paint defensively. Nick had 5 boards in that first stint and Etan was contesting everything. Both guys are physically aggressive and don’t shy away from contact, but the difference between the two is that Colly is a great rebounder who plays below the rim and Thomas pounds people below the rim but gets up above it to block shots. They are a nasty duo.
After shooting just 8/23 in the first (34.8%) the Thunder got it to drop a bit better in the second and went 7/15 (46% ) and put 22 points on the board.
In the third quarter the Thunder really cranked up the heat defensively. I had the Detroit broadcast on League pass and the Detroit announcers were lamenting that OKC was taking the Pistons out of their offense and what they wanted to do. High praise. We will take it. I actually think OKC’s defense was very good in the first half also, just that the Pistons seemed to just be red hot and getting everything to drop. It was a pretty exciting moment when the Thunder took the lead 52-51 in the third on the road in the Palace. I began to feel like we didn’t belong in that discussion of bottom feeder teams like we were so much last year.
One key play in the fourth had Etan Thomas sky up for a big time block of a Ben Gordon drive and Kevin Durant got the rebound. He initiated a fast break and dished to Green right at the basket who made a little pivot and put the ball in off the glass and got the “and 1″. That play put us up 10 at 73-63.
For the rest of the fourth the lead seemed to be stuck at six. We actually endured an 8-2 Piston where the Thunder had a butt load of wasted possessions but managed to persevere. Finally with about 2 minutes left Thabo hit the first three of the game for the Thunder. Then of course Ben Gordon answered with one of his 0wn. Next possession KD answered with our second of the game and I was all smiles.
- I can’t stress enough how much improvement I see in the Thunder defensively. It’s like watching the Spurs or Cavs out there. I saw at least 80 Thunder games last season and I never saw defense like this for more than a possession or two. This was very intense, swarming and pressuring defense. It wasn’t perfect, but it is such a night and day improvement.
- Memo to Henry Abbott: Kevin Durant’s defense doesn’t suck anymore. He may not be Trevor Ariza or Shane Battier yet, but the dude is working his arse off on D. He is shuffling his feet, his hands are up, those long arms are out and he is staying in front of his man. His defensive intensity is very high and his improvement is very very noticeable, as is the whole teams.
- I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the very nice game that Krstic had. He hit his shots, he clogged the lane, he rebounded some, he contested shots. Sometimes the highest praise comes from the enemy. The Piston announcer said of Krstic “well, they’ve found themselves a Center…. he is very adequate.”
- The Russell Westbrook/Rodney Stuckey matchup was fun to watch. Neither guy shot well, but they both had their impact on the game. Russ had 10 assists (and 5 turns) 2 blocks, a steal and 5 boards. Stuckey got to the line like a man possessed but wasn’t much of a distributor. Russell was both awesome and infuriating at the same time. One minute he was bricking wide open shots with close to 20 seconds on the shot clock, or forcing drives into the defense, and the next he was getting a huge block or a giant offensive rebound or making the no look pass. He makes me want to munch down a whole bottle of tums and then spit them out when I jump up and cheer for him.
- Durant and Russ both had double-doubles.
- We got to see a little bit of full court pressure by the Thunder at times. I notice Iblaka and Russ were working a little two man press and trap on the Piston point guard.
- After two games the Thunder’s defensive efficiency (points allowed per 100 possessions) is at 95.9. Last year it over 109! We are allowing 86 points per game so far compared to 103 last season.
- I saw something I never thought I would see: Ben Wallace actually put the ball on the court for about three dribbles and drove and finished with a left hand. Krstic was so shocked he didn’t even shuffle his feet or contest the shot.
- Collison made a huge big nads 14 foot jumper late in the fourth that really impressed me. Green hit a really impressive turn around fade away jumper from about 18 feet in the third that was really, really pretty.
- How about only 11 turns for a team that led the league last year?
I could say more but my fingers are tired. Just a fantastic win. I can’t say enough about how different and improved the Thunder look from anytime last season.
I thought this was a great game defensively Russ had two huge blocks and Etan had one heck of a block on Ben Gordon and you could see the Pistons were frusturated when they couldn't run their offense or they had to hoist up a shot from half court because we knocked the ball into their half of the court so I thought it was an outstanding game and effort by the Thunda!!!!
Kev :You shouldnt compare results – but I’m doing it anyway –
New Orleans had to work to eke out a 5 point win over the Kings at home . . .
So you're saying that us beating Detroit, who beat Memphis, who beat Toronto, who beat Cleveland doesn't make us a lock for the playoffs? :)
Thabo wasn't stellar, but his worst defensive game is better than what the others do on their best defensive day. Gordon is a hard draw for any defender - he's just a flat out scorer. Harden was on Stuckey a lot, so he wasn't exposed as much as he was in the opener . . .
Lefty :
...the Pistons would be GM, a once proud brand struggling to remake itself in the face of a changing competitive environment, and the Thunder would be WE MAKE GIANT HOMICIDAL FUTURISTIC ROBOTS, LLC, INCORPORATED, a mom-and-pop killer robot boutique.
best. analogy. ever.
best.
@Kev
Probably true, but Thabo didn't exactly have a stellar game last night. I wouldn't keep Harden on Roy for long, but I sure was glad to see him show the skill set we were all drooling over during the draft.
Nobody is talking about the fact that Durant has gotten 12 and 11 rebounds so far! He only had 15 games last year where he got at least 10, and only twice in consecutive games. Finally he is playing bigger and taking advantage of his long wingspan.
I think Thabo plays a lot more against Portland. We can't have Harden on Roy for any appreciable time . . .
It looks like Portland is blaming it's loss on a lack of defensive intensity. Let's hope they bring that same sluggish D to the Ford Center on Sunday, after beating Houston on the road Saturday night. I'm hoping they come in a bit tired.
Also, I think someone else mentioned it, but the best part of the Piston's game was that the bench played a ton better than they did against the Kings. While the starting five all played well and did what they needed to do, it was the bench that got them back into the game.
Harden was +17, Collison +12, Thomas +7, and Ollie +7. Detroit's bench was all in the minus
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=291030008
I was pleased with Durant's effort on defense last night, no matter if his results were positive or negative.
As we've learned from guys like Kobe and LeBron, getting better on defense is an ongoing thing, it doesn't happen in one offseason. Last year, KD put all his effort into his offense, and his defense suffered greatly. I doubt any of us would dispute that.
But last night - maybe structurally he wasn't perfect - but he hustled harder on the defense end than I ever saw from him last year. Not just that, but last year, if his shot wasn't falling, he wouldn't work on the defensive end. He hasn't gotten loose on offense yet, but he's still working. He'll get it.
spike :@KevI noticed the same thing, but it’s hard to say how much of that was Durant’s poor defense and how much of it was the gameplan designed by the coaches. Prince took 9 shots in 44 minutes, precisely because nobody was looking for him no matter how open he was. Maybe if the Pistons fed him more, Durant would have had to man up on him more, but why penalize him for poor defensive position that was beneficial to the Thunder’s effort to clog the lane?
you are right, this is is somewhat subkective, BUT Prince has shown scoring ability in the past, AND Durant's weakside defense last year was below average as well. Now I know that the OKC coaching staff watches way more tape than I do, and I know that they appreciate what Outlat and Webster can do offensively. Maybe they did tell Durant to ignore Prince. I have no idea of knowing. I am just making educated guesses here based on what Durant did last year. Hopefully Durant is coached up today and tomorrow, and hopefully he will stick much closer to his man against the Blazers. But I still stand by my assessment.
@Ezellion
I see what you're saying, but my comment was more about Harden's ability to initiate the offense than it was about Ollie. Clearly I would rather have a better backup point guard that doesn't have to play off the ball just so the offense can run smoothly. But hey, with Harden's passing skills, there just won't be many backup point guards that will have that kind of positive impact off the bench. And he pretty much player that same role at ASU, so why not exploit that?
And I definitely agree with you about Livingston or Weaver. Both are more capable of contributing on Offense, and it would seem to me that weaver should be more than capable of guard the opposing PG.... whereas Harden would lack the lateral quickness. Ollie might be the safe choice, but unless Weaver and Livingston are really stinking up in practice, I don't see why they aren't getting some play time.
@Lefty
LOL- Nice find.
The blocks by Thomas were amazingly vicious, but what about the blocks that Westbrook had?! The one in the lane was awesome and then the swat of Gordon's 3 from behind got me out of my chair!
And while I like Harden, I thought he held on to the ball too long and/or picked up his dribble with no plan during three or four possessions. I also thought he hesitated on a pass to a wide open man in the lane (which we scored on anyway). He's learning. The dishes were nice though. Turned out to be some fine china he was slinging. :)
I think Stuckey is another Iverson. Everytime he touched the ball, you knew he was going to shoot it. What has he done to get all of those shots? The Pistons had to have been furious. Almost none of them were good looks and I think that is why Gordon took over in the 4th.
Jeff Green had some sweet turnaround moves in the post. Reminded me of Dwight's "spin move" from The Office when he tried to get by a receptionist. Ha Ha!
The scoring distribution has been great. Westbrook is doing his job. 10 more assists. Can't wait for Portland!
@Kev
I noticed the same thing, but it's hard to say how much of that was Durant's poor defense and how much of it was the gameplan designed by the coaches. Prince took 9 shots in 44 minutes, precisely because nobody was looking for him no matter how open he was. Maybe if the Pistons fed him more, Durant would have had to man up on him more, but why penalize him for poor defensive position that was beneficial to the Thunder's effort to clog the lane?
A little late, but did anyone see Hardwood Paroxysm's preview of this game? I love this line especially (or, maybe even expecially):
If I were to use a simple, inappropriate and barely relevant analogy to describe this situation (which I will proceed to do momentarily), the Pistons would be GM, a once proud brand struggling to remake itself in the face of a changing competitive environment, and the Thunder would be WE MAKE GIANT HOMICIDAL FUTURISTIC ROBOTS, LLC, INCORPORATED, a mom-and-pop killer robot boutique.
Defensive Addendum
Went back and watched the game again to scrutinize Durant’s defensive night. Positives: ON the ball, Durant is much more active with his hands, and he racked up three deflections (which is good for him). He was also a little better in transition than usual.
Negatives: I know Durant got a lot of praise on this board for his defense last night, but IMO it just wasn’t there. He still goes under way too many times. In our new scheme he is often sitting way off his man. As you all know, he guarded Prince most of the game. Well, lucky for Durant (and us) Prince did not move much at all. About half the game he sat weakside and watched the action with Stuckey, Gordon and Villanueva. When the ball was driven, often Durant would be in the lane far off his man. Prince was open A LOT in this situation. Stuckey is just a bad point guard. Yes, I know he had 21 points, but last I checked he only had two assists. TWO assists from a point guard that logged 36+ minutes. That’s bad at any level. I’ve already seen Portland this year. Durant will have to step up his defensive game. He can’t help off Travis Outlaw and Martell Webster. Those guys love to fill it up. Not only that, the Blazers point guards (Steve Blake and Andre Miller) are VERY willing passers. If he plays defense on Sunday like he did last night, he will get torched.
woo-hoo!!!! 2-0!!!
@B-RY
I have no idea why you would be pleased that Harden was bringing the ball up and Ollie was out there. Harden could bring the ball up no matter who is out there. Ollie, so far, has looked terrrible on offense and defense. He missed open shots that were uncontested and other than one charge he took, which was a good play, he plays so far off his man he can't challenge the shot. You could put Livingston or Weaver out there and at least have better offense, Livingston, or defense, Weaver, and still have Harden bring the ball up.
Kev :
You shouldnt compare results – but I’m doing it anyway –
New Orleans had to work to eke out a 5 point win over the Kings at home . . .
Ha!
You shouldnt compare results - but I'm doing it anyway -
New Orleans had to work to eke out a 5 point win over the Kings at home . . .
Joe :@Crow I noticed that also. In fact, last year I noted that when the team slowed they played better. Maybe Brooks saw the trend as well. The only time I really saw the team run was in transition i.e. turnover or steal or defensive rebound.
It’s also of note that when Ollie brings it up it’s just at a jog.
I am always of the firm belief that we can play better if we play faster, especailly with Harden AND Westbrook on the floor at the same time. With RW's improved passing, both guys can push it and setup for others. BUT you can't argue with 2-0 . . .
Nix :I’m beginning to think a better comparison for Harden would be Arenas. Of course he’s a long way off from Arenas at his best, but he’s also a long way off from Manu as well. Harden showed amazing potential to create tonight, which we knew he had but didn’t expect it to manifest before his scoring would. Once Harden figures out how to score consistently I think everyone would find an Arenas comparison far more suiting.
(side note: I hate Arenas, but that might be because I’ve had him as a fantasy player too many times. Still wish I had his pool though.)
Harden is a much better passer than Arenas IMO . . .
Russ had a very good assist game, BUT he needs to stop jumnping in the air to pass - he did that repeatedly last night. Still, you cant argue with double digit assists on consecutive nights . . .
I was glad to see some defensive production out of Thomas last night, though I am puzzled by his lack of rebounding. Great game over all. During the Lakers game last night an announcer threw out a "break up the Thunder" comment. I am loving this, and mark my words- If we get to 3-0 with a home win over a club like the Blazers, we are playing in the post-season this year.
@Dai
I think regarding the full court press/trap that the Pistons put on Westbrook in the fourth that it was sort of a mixed bag; some good and some bad:
On one possession he moved and weaved and avoided the trap. Then on the next possession he was out of control and got an offensive foul for forcing himself. Then on another he picked up a foul. The idea is (once he gets more experience and seasoning) that if you are being trapped and double teamed it means there is at least one of your teammates who is unguarded. If you can get the ball to him you break the press/trap for an easy basket. That is why most teams only press as a changeup. Good point guards can break it by finding the open man while avoiding the trap.
Westbrook is still just a baby. He can only get better.
Westbrook wasn't as careful as he was against Sacramento, but it's still a big improvement from last season where he only had back to back double digit assist games once (toward the end of the year). His shot is still erratic and he isn't finishing in the paint but that stuff should come, it's very good to see him setting up teammates at all and learning how to be an NBA point guard.
I'm not happy with Westbrook's turnover ratio. I know some of the TOs were minor mistakes. Yet, I was amazed that Westbrook did not allow Detroit to trap him with the full-court press they utilized in the 4th quarter. His avoidance of the trap is what secured this victory.
Is is just me, or are you guys afraid Westbrook is going to explode? Lately, he seems so angry. I swear I can see steam blowing from his ears. I'm not sure if it is anger or just being competitive. I hope the latter.
Concerning Durant, I can't believe he scored 25 last night. I was casually watching the game at times, but Durant seemed to missing more than he made. Looking at the box score it looks like Durant shot 42% FG and 50% 3pt. I wonder what the percent would be if the layups and dunks were removed. Needless to say, I've seen Durant shoot better. When he does start knocking down shots, 30+ ppg should be easily obtained.
@Kev
I agree with W-Brook being late on defense because of his rebound attempts. Not that I'm complaining, because he does pull down some very important rebounds. Also with Russ hanging around the post he tends to steal/strip the ball once or twice a game.
@Joe and Crow
My, how times have changed when other teams are slowing down the Pistons.
I don't know if anyone else noticed, but on one of the SportsCenter breaks during the Mavs-Lakers game, the Thunder win was ahead of the Cavs getting their first win. Then on ESPN's mobile site, the Thunder recap was the only story to include video.
I never thought I'd say this, but I'm kind of anxious for Portland and the Lakers to come to town. Those should be two good tests for the Thunder. I'm not predicting that they'll win, but they should give us a good benchmark for where this team really is.
@Crow I noticed that also. In fact, last year I noted that when the team slowed they played better. Maybe Brooks saw the trend as well. The only time I really saw the team run was in transition i.e. turnover or steal or defensive rebound.
It's also of note that when Ollie brings it up it's just at a jog.
If the crowd works as hard as this team, they'll win even more.
I'm so tickled!!!
2 games isn't a trend yet but they played slowed way down. To near the slowest in the league. How much is them and how much was these opponents / these unique nights too early to say. It is probably a good move. I was for that last season.
I'm beginning to think a better comparison for Harden would be Arenas. Of course he's a long way off from Arenas at his best, but he's also a long way off from Manu as well. Harden showed amazing potential to create tonight, which we knew he had but didn't expect it to manifest before his scoring would. Once Harden figures out how to score consistently I think everyone would find an Arenas comparison far more suiting.
(side note: I hate Arenas, but that might be because I've had him as a fantasy player too many times. Still wish I had his pool though.)
HA! Nice.... I guess that's what I get for asuming
B-RY :
That was really nice. For the first time in a while I really felt like I was rooting for a legit basketball team. There are some holes, but things look really good at the moment and they closed out a close game on the road against a team that probably would have gotten the comeback win last year.
Oh… and just because I’m technically correct…the Thunder are currently tied with the Lakers for first place in the West!!!!
I think you must mean tied with Denver for first in the Northwest. Lakers are 1-1, lost tonight to Dallas. Phoenix is 2-0 also.
Oh... and I was positively giddy watching Harden initiate the offense so well. I think I figured out why Weaver was wearing a suit and Livingston was warming the bench. Ollie is a more reliable PG defensively and is less prone to turnovers than Livingston..... and with Harden on the court, they have someone who can distribute the ball extremely well (perhaps more naturally than Westbrook).
And even better.... I didn't see any glaring defensive mistakes by Harden against a team with solid guards. So happy right now!!
That was really nice. For the first time in a while I really felt like I was rooting for a legit basketball team. There are some holes, but things look really good at the moment and they closed out a close game on the road against a team that probably would have gotten the comeback win last year.
Oh... and just because I'm technically correct...the Thunder are currently tied with the Lakers for first place in the West!!!!
that was possibly the best and most important win for the thunder. f-ing amazing. i've tried so hard not to believe the hype, but wow...
ROLL THUNDER!!!
the pistons obviously arnt as good as they have been in the past, but when the thunder won tonight, i about cried! this is the greatest thing ever! thunder 2-0 to start out!! i love it!
One really good, underrated stat from tonight: Kevin Durant, 1 turnover. That's huge.
Royce :Kev, I really noticed how Ibaka seemed a little lost defensively. He wanted to help and rotate so bad, but he also wasn’t sure if he should leave his man. It almost seemed like his teammates were literally pushing him to guard a man.
He’s going to get it. It was his first action against a team that moves well without the ball.
agreed - like Harden he got initiated in his first action . . . he's not yet ready to play more than a few minutes at a time . . .
Kev, I really noticed how Ibaka seemed a little lost defensively. He wanted to help and rotate so bad, but he also wasn't sure if he should leave his man. It almost seemed like his teammates were literally pushing him to guard a man.
He's going to get it. It was his first action against a team that moves well without the ball.
In "Differential", a stat John Hollinger considers the most predictive of future success, the Thunder lead the Western Conference. True story. :-P
I don't think you can really overstate Etan Thomas' contribution to the defense tonight. It's nice having a guy on the interior to alter and block shots. Him and Collison were both punishing the Detroit guards when they got to the rim and that's been something missing from the franchise since the last playoff run in Seattle.
I'm not a huge fan of these types of 'shell' defenses, but it's probably the best brand of defense this roster can play effectively. It leads to a lot of steals and puts pressure on the other team to hit jump shots.
Overall though you have to be impressed with how Brooks has these guys working on defense. The intensity and effort were there.
"I saw at least 80 Thunder games last season and I never saw defense like this for more than a possession or two. This was game long swarming and pressuring."
There were times I thought Detroit had four men on the court when the Thunder had five. It was "Swarming"
I think that Detroit was manhandled.
"I saw at least 80 Thunder games last season and I never saw defense like this for more than a possession or two."
I saw no less than 75 and I completely agree!
If they bring this effort for the next 80 games, I don't care what the final numbers are!
While Durant may be the superstar, Westbrook, if he keeps this up, will be an all star as well as maybe the most improved player of the year!
That was really enjoyable...It's like watching a different team.
Defensive Discussion
You have to appreciate the way Thomas holds court in the lane. He had three blocks by my count, and was a stopping force in the lane. We didn’t have this at all last year – it’s good to see this, and Thomas will get time for that regardless of what he does on the offensive end.
Overall, I love the defensive improvement inside. It not so much the blocks, it’s the defensive rotation by the big guys. Last year, it seemed like that they were going through the motions when they helped. Now, Krstic, Collison, and Green are actively looking to shut off lanes on penetration. We are playing defense like a team!!!!
Now I will elaborate about Jeff Green. We know that Green is an undersized four. But sometimes, Green playing defense at the four has its advantages. As you know, the NBA is all about pick and roll. When teams screen with their four, Green is doing a very good job of hedging the pick and forcing the guy with the ball to give it up. Green can also STAY with the ballhandler, whereas one of our other bigs would have to retreat back inside. If Green was a traditional four, he would not have the quickness to do this. I will keep an eye on this to see how teams attack the Thunder with their pick and roll offense. NOTE – Collison and Krstic are also much improved in hedging the pick and rolls. Yes, an offseason helped Brooks to get his defensive system in place
However, this "shell defense" still has some holes - on one drive in the first half, Thomas was in the position to block Stuckey, yet Green and Westbrook found it necessary to dig down - the result: Prince is wide open for a jumper. I'd take my chances with Thomas against Stuckey.
It didn’t take long for Ibaka to get baptized. On his first defensive possession, Stuckey scored on a drive. Why? Because Ibaka lost sight of his man (Charlie Villanueva) when he went to the perimeter. You have to know personnel. Ibaka has to know that he is guarding a perimeter scorer. So after Ibaka remained inside, Westbrook had to fly out to Charlie after the ball was rotated to him – then Ibaka was forced to fly at Stuckey after Charlie passed to Stuckey. Stuckey scored on the runner, all because Ibaka originally left Charlie WIDE open. He also left Villanueva wide open on the next two possessions – guess who will be watching a lot of film tomorrow?
I just don’t like the scheme where RW goes in for the offensive rebounds. I know he gets a lot of love for it on this page, but it kills our defensive balance in transition. The same thing occurs on one of his frequent forays in the lane (he actually got his second block BECAUSE he was late in transition – but you obviously cant count on that happening). When he drives, we need to have someone rotate back and cover in transition. Often this doesn’t happen.
See you back here on Sunday!!!!