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Peace, Love and Thunderstanding: Bargain Shopping

by Clark Matthews on December 24, 2009 at 1:00 pm 60 Comments

sam presti

When I was in college, I had a buddy who would get in his car with a mission to hit as many garage sales and flea markets as he could reach while still making it back to Stillwater in time for his Monday morning classes.  He would return with a trunk full of worn out looking clothes that he had paid almost nothing to acquire, and in some cases were just given to him.  At the time, I just assumed he was a pack rat, or considering he was an art major, someone who was going to make some weird sculpture out of scrap cotton and polyester.

Since he dropped out of school when I was a sophomore, I lost touch with him until I bumped into him while getting my wife an Orange Julius at Quail Springs Mall.  He was standing outside the vintage clothing store he had just opened.  Curious, I walked inside and realized that all the merchandise he was selling came from trips like those weekend adventures he went on while at OSU.  Even more, I realized he was making a killing.  Shirts and pants he had acquired for pennies were going for no less than $30 a pop and most of it was far more expensive.  The art major had come up with a great business model in which every sale was almost entirely profit.

Sam Presti makes me think of this guy a lot.

By design or necessity, the Sonics/Thunder franchise has always been a model of fiscal conservatism since Presti took over the reins during the team’s last year in Seattle.  While most of the league has stocked their roster full of overpaid players and flirted with the luxury tax, Presti’s teams have always started the season well below the salary cap.

That status has made him a great bargain hunter.  I once read a Chad Ford article that said Portland’s Kevin Pritchard was the best wheeler-dealer in the NBA because he made more calls than anyone else, unafraid of being shot down for a terrible trade proposal.  My guess is that Sam Presti is the opposite.

As the one guy who consistently has money to spend in a league full of bloated payroll’s, Presti is a loan shark in a poor neighborhood.  The other GM’s must seek him out as if he’s The Godfather on the day of his daughter’s wedding.

In return for granting the request of his fellow general manager (which is typically, “take this overpaid bench player off my hands so we don’t have to double his salary with luxury tax”), they must grant Sam Presti a favor.  Usually, that has been draft picks.

The best example was the Kurt Thomas acquisition during his inaugural season.  The Suns, who always seem to be making rash roster decisions for fiscal reasons (at least since being purchased by Robert Sarver), were well over the luxury tax threshold and needing to shed a ton of salary without taking anything back.  With the SuperSonics some $10MM under the salary cap thanks to the trade of Ray Allen and loss of Rashard Lewis in free agency, they were the onlyteam that could save them.  When Steve Kerr called his fellow rookie GM like Leia sending out the distress call to Obi Wan Kenobi, Presti made him pay through the nose.

For the act of taking on a pretty solid, albeit close to washed up, Kurt Thomas and his $8MM expiring contract, Presti required the Suns give up two first round picks.  The first of those picks became Serge Ibaka, which I would suggest was a pretty good haul by itself.  Phoenix saved $16MM in total, and the Sonics got a de facto player/coach who eventually was bought out so Presti’s former team, San Antonio, could sign him for the playoffs.

Other salary dumps that Presti has maneuvered included taking Chucky Atkins off the hands of Denver for draft disappointment Johan Petro, (a trade that eventually was parlayed into Etan Thomas).  For that deal, Presti acquired the first round pick that became Byron Mullens, who may be the second coming of Johan Petro.   Also, at the trade deadline, Presti took Thabo Sefolosha from the Bulls who were suddenly cash strapped after acquiring Brad Miller and John Salmons.  The cost?  A first round pick the Thunder didn’t need.

This past week, he may have struck gold again.  Armed with salary cap space, he was approached by the Utah Jazz hoping to alleviate their luxury tax liability.  The Jazz had expected several players to opt out of their contracts this past Summer, but were burned when Carlos Boozer (who had informed them he would become a free agent last season) and Kyle Korver surveyed the market and realized their best bet was to stay put.  Then Portland hosed them by offering Paul Millsap a front loaded contract which Utah, not wanting to lose him, matched.  In essence, their payroll during a recession became alarmingly overwhelming.

Again, the Thunder happened to be the only team that could provide relief.  Again, Presti made them pay through the nose to do them a “favor.”

In return for the draft rights of Peter Fehse and taking basketball invalid Matt Harpring’s expiring contract (which is being paid by an insurance company), the Thunder received another valuable piece in the roster building process.  While I am not as in love with Eric Maynor as Royce, (I wanted a point guard with Maynor’s instincts that could shoot, too) he is still a fantastic return for taking the contract of a guy the team doesn’t have to pay and a second round pick that was never going to play in the United States.

In all, Sam Presti has acquired these players on the current roster…

  • Thabo Sefolosha
  • Eric Maynor
  • Etan Thomas
  • Serge Ibaka
  • Byron Mullens

…as well as Phoenix’ first round pick in the upcoming draft, for these tangible assets…

  • a first round pick used to take Taj Gibson
  • Johan Petro

You ask me, that’s a lot for nothing.

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Allene Alier
Allene Alier 5pts

Nice post man... going to post this on the facebook wall if that's cool with ya ? By: Cheap Deals Holiday

Clark Matthews
Clark Matthews 5pts

@justin

The Ray Allen trade looks great in retrospect. Regardless of what you think of Jeff Green, getting Sugar Ray's salary off the books and jumpstarting the rebuilding process while the team was still stuck in Seattle made that trade genius. Had they kept Ray, whose contract was toxic, a max deal for a star who couldn't carry a team (I still can't believe Boston took it on, and I'm even more shocked they managed to make it work on their side--I guess that's the benefit of retiring the number of a guy who runs another franchise), we'd still be in the same position as the Sonics were then. They would have also locked up Rashard Lewis and they would have been just good enough that they were getting middle first rounders instead of early lottery and the team would be mediocre, capped out, and have no prospect of improving.

Oh, and there's a chance the team still would be in Seattle...but we probably shouldn't go there.

Koozies
Koozies 5pts

Hi,
I agree with you.
It is wonderful post

Butchelor
Butchelor 5pts

no big comment on that...but I LOVE this blog, it is great and pls keep up the great work ;)

DizzyDai
DizzyDai 5pts

If I'm not mistaken, Presti was involved in the final trade before the deadline last season and the 1st one this season (if you don't count the disgruntle Jackson trade).

Crow
Crow 5pts

1a) If 2 of these 4 young guys are significantly better in 2-3 years then you are probably happy.

1b) If you do better than that then you are probably very happy.

2) If Thabo 2012 is basically the same, Maynor is just ok, Ibaka is still a mix of good and bad team effects and Mullens isn't playing much then most people probably won't be happy.

If it ends up somewhere between 1a) and 2 then people might vary in how satisfied they are.

Crow
Crow 5pts

I won't rehash the whole list of players that could have been drafted instead of who was drafted but the list is far more than just Landry.

How much these players are ultimately worth
* Thabo Sefolosha
* Eric Maynor
* Etan Thomas
* Serge Ibaka
* Byron Mullens
can be better estimated in 2-3 years.

I can't say if it will look significant or not. Will probably be in-between.

Plenty of work still to do.

Sid
Sid 5pts

@justin
One thing you have to remember is that Ray Allen was coming off two ankle surgeries that summer which decreased his value somewhat, because no one was sure if was gonna be able to rebound back to his previous level of play.

Joe
Joe 5pts

@justin Good to know. Thanks.

justin
justin 5pts

The fact that we were under the cap at the time of the trade means that the 60 day rule is waived, so Sam Presti is free to trade Matt Harpring with any other players at any time. The cap situation of the team he is trading with doesn't come into play.

Joe
Joe 5pts

justin :@Joe

Joe I thought that might have been a reason too, but according to Hollinger that rule (wait 60 days to trade) only applies to teams over the salary cap. We’re still a bit under.
If Eric Maynor secures the backup position and is able to play ~15 minutes a game here then it’s probably good value.
I agree Ray Allen should have definitely been traded, I just wonder if he could have gotten more. Looking at those kinds of trades that have happened over the years, an All Star 31 year old SG should have had more value..
It’s water under the bridge, though. I’m excited about Eric Maynor, and I’m eager to see if Sam Presti has anything planned for the Matt Harpring contract. We’ve got a soft schedule for the next few weeks, I want to see a nice run!

Right, I got ya, but what if we wanted to trade Harp's contract to New York for their first round pick. They are over the cap, we are under. Does the 60 day rule apply? That's my thinking. That the 60 day rule would come into play since most teams are well over the cap.

justin
justin 5pts

@Joe

Joe I thought that might have been a reason too, but according to Hollinger that rule (wait 60 days to trade) only applies to teams over the salary cap. We're still a bit under.

If Eric Maynor secures the backup position and is able to play ~15 minutes a game here then it's probably good value.

I agree Ray Allen should have definitely been traded, I just wonder if he could have gotten more. Looking at those kinds of trades that have happened over the years, an All Star 31 year old SG should have had more value..

It's water under the bridge, though. I'm excited about Eric Maynor, and I'm eager to see if Sam Presti has anything planned for the Matt Harpring contract. We've got a soft schedule for the next few weeks, I want to see a nice run!

Joe
Joe 5pts

@justin
One issue is that by acquiring Maynor and Harpring this early there is still 60 days to the trade deadline, so they could theoretically be dealt again. But I don't think that's the real reason. The real reason is that Presti wanted Maynor, we needed a very good backup and the deal presented itself. So why wait. We still have two expiring contracts so he can still do something. Presti wants to win some games now, Maynor only helps. Did you see his court vision last night. Hitting Ibaka on that drive in the paint? Genius.

I really can't knock a single move Presti has made. I was deeply imbedded in the Sonic culture and the feeling at the time was that would Ray Allen be the next Reggie Miller or the next Mitch Richmond? Would he be the guy who would play at a high level till nearly 40 (Reggie Miller) or the guy who the wheels would fall off of at about 33. I like the move to move Ray. The team was just not going anywhere except for middling at best with Ray and Rashard. Well maybe it could have theoretically, but it never did after many tries. It was good. Ray Ray will be gone from the league in two or three years, but Jeff Green, much as I am a bit concerned about him being a tweener, will be just entering his prime. Great move. I am a huge huge Presti fan.

justin
justin 5pts

I am guilty for wanting Paul Millsap on this team.. he's looked so average. I thought he'd be good!

Anonymous
Anonymous 5pts

Well, after wasting a part of my life on this diatribe http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/2009/10/sam-prestis-survival-strategy-in-post.jsp , Sham strikes me as someone who likes to listen to himself talk ( or read what he writes ) . Presti's inactivity last summer can be summed up in far fewer words. Mountains of molehills, is what Sham's efforts appear to me.

justin
justin 5pts

It's kind of stupid for Sham to bring up the Carl Landry trade, though, since every other team passed on him too.

justin
justin 5pts

Sham knows his stuff but he's been fairly critical of Sam Presti for a long time. Most of his criticisms center around Presti's drafting, notably the Ray Allen trade to get Jeff Green and the drafting of Russell Westbrook.

That said, he does bring up some of the same points I brought up and it's true that you must wonder what prompted Presti to make this kind of move so early. It's very likely that a much better deal than this one would have materialized closer to the trade deadline since he was the only one who had significant cap space to rent out. As Sham is stating, time will tell whether or not Maynor was worth the trade, and if Sam Presti has plans for Matt Harpring's expiring or if they will just save the $$$. Either Presti sees something special in Maynor or he has big plans for Harpring; otherwise the timing of the deal is a very big head scratcher.

Anonymous
Anonymous 5pts

I've seen shamsports.com mentioned in comments here as a reliable place for salary info. Anyone care to fill me in on this Sham character. Does he have some kind of schtick ? He's not really enamored with Presti. His thoughts on the Maynor trade http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/

GAP
GAP 5pts

Read some of the comment from this story on Maynor, seems like Utah fans are sick that he's gone.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705353762/Utah-Jazz-notebook-Trade-stuns-Maynor-but-rookie-is-in-good-spirits.html

GAP
GAP 5pts

@Joe
I most defintely agree.

Joe
Joe 5pts

Clark, you are the official DailyThunder Master of the metaphor: Dude from college who re-sells old clothes for 30 times it's value=Sam Presti. Brilliant.

Back in the day after Clay bought the team but before Sam Presti was hired, Presti was already well known in certain circles. He was the hottest name among the list out there for future G.M.'s. So much so that his name was thrown around as "hopefully Clay will hire Presti". Genius move to actually nab the top "up and coming" guy, and to get out of the way and let him run the operation. Really. Not a Clay fan, but I have to give credit where credit is due. Clay has been a great owner and just part of that is picking Presti. Another part is buying the 66ers. Great move. Presti is a genius.

Kivman
Kivman 5pts

One more off topic comment...
Serge Ibaka is #9 in PER for rookies but David Thorpe still has him as the #25 rookie and hasn't updated his comments on Ibaka since OCTOBER 29. What's up with that? We have to give Thorpe some grief...Royce - you got any pull with him to get him to at least WATCH Ibaka?!?

Kivman
Kivman 5pts

The other thing about the Allen trade is that Presti possibly wanted to bottom out. This accomplished two things:
1) It made the crowds in Seattle diminish and more apathetic, making it easier to move (okay...maybe this is a reason that Bennett wanted to bottom out - not Presti), and
2) It gives us the chance to draft a couple of other high picks like Westbrook and Harden instead of being stuck in the dreaded middle of the league.
So I would say trading Allen also helped us get Westbrook and Harden.

ATR
ATR 5pts

I think with Mullens you take the chance on him at the twenty fourth pick in the draft and do what you can to help him develop into the prospect who was in the running for the top pick in the draft.

At the worst what did we lose? We have more bigs than we can play. DJ can't get any time. Would Dajaun Blair get more? Maybe. I think it is a swing for the fences pick. I think Serge was too. Pick a prospect and hope they develop if they do, great.

You just don't pick Mullens with the second pick like memphis this year or even with the tenth like we did with Sene.

MartzMimic
MartzMimic 5pts

@John-o
I think Durant is probably the only one who gets a max contract. Green and Westbrook will get paid, but not as much. If you look around the league these days, teams are passing out max contracts like they used to.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

i am stuck at work all night, so im gonna work on some stat compilations

Royce
Royce 5pts

@Lefty
I know. It's a beautiful thing.

Lefty
Lefty 5pts

Have you guys noticed Maynor is already in the Tweet circle with the other guys? Yessssssssssssssss

Zombie Brew
Zombie Brew 5pts

@John-o
I would consider two of the three resigning a huge success!

GAP
GAP 5pts

@Durantula
It looks like he's turning the corner some.

John-o
John-o 5pts

Makes you wonder what the plan is when KD, Westbrook, and Green all are on the hook for new contracts following the 'l1 / '12 season. Do you see Presti offering top dollar to keep the trio or is he going to continue to wheel and deal to get emerging rookies at that time?

Durantula
Durantula 5pts

@GAP
I hope you are right because it would fill a need if Mullins becomes serviceable... But having seen the guy, he's not a gamer... which is why he couldn't even start in college.

Gavin
Gavin 5pts

@justin: I have different opinion about Ray Allen trade. If you look into series of other transactions following this trade, Presti managed to get rid of Luke Ridnour contract and almost turn Wilcox into Tyson Chandler (with some 'transition' players such as Marshall, Newble, Joe Smith, Desmond Mason etc). If Thunder still have Ridnour contract, Presti can't make Maynor trade and will have less salary cap space this summer. So I'd say we get Maynor because of Ray Allen trade.

justin
justin 5pts

Oh, and hiring P.J. Carlesimo..

justin
justin 5pts

I looked over all of Sam Presti's transactions since he became GM and the only one that still looks funny to me is the Ray Allen trade. Ray Allen is a Hall of Fame SG who was coming off an excellent season and was only 31 at the time.

If you look at the trade in retrospect, the only piece we got that was really worth much is Jeff Green. Of course we shed our responsibility for Ray's contract and it turned out he did decline slightly the next couple years (and has started to more precipitously this season), but I'm still not sure Sam Presti couldn't have gotten more for a Hall of Fame SG. Gary Payton was 34 when we traded him for a then 27 year old Ray Allen. I understand why he made the trade at that time, because he wanted to put his stamp on the organization and 'build the culture'. It would have been weird to draft KD, have Rashard Lewis as a lame duck, and Ray Allen still on the roster.

Other than that, it's hard for me to find any fault with any of his transactions. The Kurt Thomas wheeling and dealing and the Thabo trade are highlights, the Tyson Chandler trade would have been a steal if he were healthy, many of his 'garbage' trades made for financial reasons have been solid. He's definitely in the top ten among league general managers, and a breath of fresh air for a franchise that hasn't had a competent GM since 'Trader' Bob Whitsitt.

Zombie Brew
Zombie Brew 5pts

I am hoping the money saved now is being squirreled away to be used as luxury tax money when the time to make a run comes up, in two or three years. Lets hope all the draft picks can still get us two-three decent role players, with a starting big in there somewhere. If Presti wanted to go ahead and trade Westbrook or Maynor plus others for Paul, well, so be it.

Sammy
Sammy 5pts

Dan :
I may be in the minority but I don’t think Presti is going to do much in the off-season. Most of his moves comes during the season.
Keep in mind Durant is a max guy. Harden and Westbrook will be paid quite a bit as well if they keep developing.
Presti might just grab a couple more prospects this year in the draft and ride in the sunset with these guys.

I agree with this. I think Presti's MO is to grow the team from within, keep them together and happy, pay them what they deserve, and see if they can take it on their own. If they can, and you maneuver just right, you could keep this team together for a long long time. Bring in a max contract and that cripples your flexibility in the future (when extension time comes for all the young'ens")

GAP
GAP 5pts

Durantula :Presti is great! My biggest beef: Byron “don’t call me BJ” Mullins. How could you look at this guy an think the is going to be an NBA player! I was screaming at my TV when we traded a draft pick away for him. Just a purely stupid pick… Everything else he has done with the Thunder warrants an ‘A.’

Can't wait to see Mullens develop into the rebounding machine and athletic 7 footer that he's displaying in Tulsa so some of ya'll can get a full belly of CROW!

Gavin
Gavin 5pts

I like what Presti has done except when he traded Carl Landry draft pick for cash. I think he should get at least future 2nd round pick.
The latest trade for Maynor, I like it too. But I am wondering if he can get more, considering it is still December and there are other teams (Wash and maybe NO) who can compete to 'donate' their assets to Thunder.
Actually I was thinking if Thunder can get 2 future unprotected 1st round picks similar to Kurt Thomas trade.
Now I am waiting for what he will do with expiring contracts of Thomas, Harpring and Ollie. And also 4 2010 draft picks (I believe 1 2nd round pick will go to Dallas).
Will Presti want to take Jared Jeffries and/or Eddy Curry contracts if he can get several Knicks future unprotected draft picks (like 2012 and 2014 picks)? Imagine if Thunder become contenders in the future and still have lottery draft picks.

Royce
Royce 5pts

Well done Clark. A perfect summation.

Josh
Josh 5pts

@dj
Also, the pick sent to the Bulls was the least favorable of the Denver pick (from Petro trade) or the Spurs pick (from Thomas trade). So really, if you follow the chain, I think the only tangible thing they gave out in all those trades was Petro.

Dan
Dan 5pts

Sure he isn't perfect and has made some questionable decisions but all of his decisions have been well thought out and Presti was prepared. Thats going to be a good thing moving forward.

Dan
Dan 5pts

The guy is one of the smartest GM's in the league who was mentored in the Spurs organization who just happened to be the most successful organization this decade regardless of sport.

Dan
Dan 5pts

One of Emerson's teachers said Presti was the hardest working student in his 35+ years of teaching. His Basketball coach says Presti is a perfectionist. add those 2 things up and what do you get? A mastermind.

dj
dj 5pts

Actually, Presti's done even better than the story indicates.

He didn't let Kurt Thomas go. He sent him down to the Spurs for yet another 1st. Ya, that's three 1sts for an excellent veteran leader they paid $4M for half a season.

Another point worth mentioning is the Rashard Lewis deal. Once Rashard decided to go, Presti played an amazingly smart card... sign & trade. He happily gave Rashard max money (the Sonics owned his Bird rights) and traded him to the Magic for nothing except a Traded Player Exception accomplishing two important things. One, he let Otis Smith mess up the Magic's salary cap. Still is. And two, Presti used that TPE to take on Kurt Thomas & his salary. So really, it was losing Rashard that got Presti started. Presti turned that situation into a TPE, then Kurt Thomas & two first, then another first. Talk about turning lemons into lemonade.

justin
justin 5pts

@Dan

KD is a 'max' guy but his max isn't the same as Chris Bosh's max, for example, since he doesn't have the years in the league. We won't be shelling the real big bucks to any of these guys for another three or four years or so.

Kev
Kev 5pts

Durantula :Presti is great! My biggest beef: Byron “don’t call me BJ” Mullins. How could you look at this guy an think the is going to be an NBA player! I was screaming at my TV when we traded a draft pick away for him. Just a purely stupid pick… Everything else he has done with the Thunder warrants an ‘A.’

Most of Presti's acquisitions are guys with high character . . .

I don't care how athletic Mullens is, he acts like a guy that couldnt care less what happens . . .

go watch his youtube video interview before the draft - he might as well been talking to a buddy in a bar, that's how serious he was taking it . . . for a guy that wasn't even starting at Ohio State, he should've been a little more serious . . .

Dan
Dan 5pts

Durantula :
Presti is great! My biggest beef: Byron “don’t call me BJ” Mullins. How could you look at this guy an think the is going to be an NBA player! I was screaming at my TV when we traded a draft pick away for him. Just a purely stupid pick… Everything else he has done with the Thunder warrants an ‘A.’

He has athleticism and can shoot a jumper decently. If he turns into Krstic in 3 or 4 years its a great pick especially at #24.

Dan
Dan 5pts

I may be in the minority but I don't think Presti is going to do much in the off-season. Most of his moves comes during the season.

Keep in mind Durant is a max guy. Harden and Westbrook will be paid quite a bit as well if they keep developing.

Presti might just grab a couple more prospects this year in the draft and ride in the sunset with these guys.

Durantula
Durantula 5pts

Presti is great! My biggest beef: Byron "don't call me BJ" Mullins. How could you look at this guy an think the is going to be an NBA player! I was screaming at my TV when we traded a draft pick away for him. Just a purely stupid pick... Everything else he has done with the Thunder warrants an 'A.'

Trackbacks

  1. Secured loans » Blog Archive » Get Paid For Shopping And Eating Out. says:
    December 26, 2009 at 5:44 am

    [...] Peace, Love and Thunderstanding: Bargain Shopping | Daily Thunder.com [...]

  2. Tha Trackback » Blog Archive » Peace, Love and Thunderstanding: Bargain Shopping | Daily Thunder.com says:
    December 27, 2009 at 6:14 am

    [...] Found this interesting post today, here is a quick excerpt of it: Comments (56) Trackbacks (1) Leave a comment Trackback. Sid. December 25th, 2009 at 02:11 | #1. Reply | Quote. @justin. One thing you have to remember is that Ray Allen was coming off two ankle surgeries that summer which decreased his … Read the rest of this great post Here [...]

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