OKC wins a wild one, 108-102 over Sacramento

@Bruno

Hey, I agree with you on the poor post D against superlative talents.

All I'm saying is eFG% and defensive rebounding rate will have a much stronger impact. Those two factors come to bear almost every game, whereas like you said, not many teams have reliable inside scorers that give us fits.

by the way, my dream scenario would be keeping Green, Nick and Ibaka and getting Roy Hibbert, that guy could be a stud on a good team.

@Mark!

I agree to some extent, but statistics don't show it all in this case.

It appears that the Thunder have fared pretty well on inside D, but that's because not many teams have a reliable inside scorer that gives us fits. The problem is, the Thunder was absolutely crushed on the inside when we faced this type of opposition (Amare Stoudemire, Zach Randolph for example), and David Lee would do nothing to help that.

the 3 point shooting, well, I have faith that Harden will be that guy, and maybe we can bring in the reliable backup SF this team so desperately need.

@kev

Then we might be in trouble because Westbrook & Thabo are here to stay, and I don't realistically see Harden or Green going anywhere either. Where will our 3 point shooting coming from? I guess scrap the idea of Green coming off the bench b/c a 3 point shooter is going to have to take minutes at small forward (meaning there wouldn't be enough minutes for Green if he's coming off the bench too). And w/ KD playing most of the game and SG being so crowded, even then the 3pt "threat" won't be seeing much time.

I'm not as convinced as you that that lineup isn't a contender. Thabo, Green and Harden can all improve their 3pt shooting. Green and Harden both shoot with reasonable efficiency from outside. KD over the past 3 years is shooting around 54 eFG%. This year Harden is over 54% and Green is ~51% over 3 years. Thabo started out the year shooting alright, but I think he lost his confidence (as opposed to completely lacking the ability).

Mark! :@Bruno
I think there’s some disagreement on what the Thunder’s biggest problems are too. I tend to see the biggest problems as eFG% (we’re 21st) and Opponent Offensive Rebound Rate (we’re 22nd).
I’m not crazy about our turnover rate either, but my understanding is that’s something you can reasonably expect to improve over time if you have a young team.
For whatever reason, we’re actually have decent numbers on the interior. 10th in opponent FG% at the rim and 1st <10ft. Our block rate is very poor (30th) but that's less about man defense and more helpside. A good defensive center helps that, but it falls below our team's eFG% and defensive rebounding rate on my radar. More blocking doesn't offer as significant a change as improving those other two areas IMO.
The thinking is that David Lee is the free agent that best fills those needs. I'm not as on board with him as others… if we could find a true center who could do those things and let us keep Green on the court as a starter another year, that's obviously ideal. I just dunno if you can find that at a reasonable price (i.e. one that actually lets us keep Green.)
And like justin said, if our starting lineup was Westbrook, Thabo, Durant, Lee, (above average center) with Harden and Green coming off the bench, you're talking about a serious championship contender.

good points, but the last statement to me is incorrect . . . we won't be contending for a championship until someone besides Durant can be relied on to hit a three . . .

People are already backing off Westbrook - why crowd him so he can go past if you can just back off him and clog the lane?? Hence the turnovers . . . Thabo and Green are nowhere near ready to hit from three (with any decency) . . . Harden comes off the bench so he doesn't count . . . you won't win a championship until we have at least one guard that can hit a three from outside . . .

@Bruno

I think there's some disagreement on what the Thunder's biggest problems are too. I tend to see the biggest problems as eFG% (we're 21st) and Opponent Offensive Rebound Rate (we're 22nd).

I'm not crazy about our turnover rate either, but my understanding is that's something you can reasonably expect to improve over time if you have a young team.

For whatever reason, we're actually have decent numbers on the interior. 10th in opponent FG% at the rim and 1st <10ft. Our block rate is very poor (30th) but that's less about man defense and more helpside. A good defensive center helps that, but it falls below our team's eFG% and defensive rebounding rate on my radar. More blocking doesn't offer as significant a change as improving those other two areas IMO.

The thinking is that David Lee is the free agent that best fills those needs. I'm not as on board with him as others... if we could find a true center who could do those things and let us keep Green on the court as a starter another year, that's obviously ideal. I just dunno if you can find that at a reasonable price (i.e. one that actually lets us keep Green.)

And like justin said, if our starting lineup was Westbrook, Thabo, Durant, Lee, (above average center) with Harden and Green coming off the bench, you're talking about a serious championship contender.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGLKt9Vkky4 Nice Serge Ibaka mix... thabo mix is coming soon.

Do you guys think westbrook will get and/or demand a max contract when it comes time for him to re-sign?

@justin

It's not called resting on your laurels, this team has never even gone to the playoffs, there are no laurels to rest on yet, that's what I'm saying.

In my opinion, you guys are too quick to dismiss Green and try to bring in a player that's not the solution to our biggest problem in my opinion (post D) and would complicate our chances at getting a player on the other big need (Center)

All the changes needed to become a championship contender won't be done in a year or 2, it takes time. The Cavs have LeBron for 7 years now and still haven't won anything.

@Bruno

Just for argument's sake, we wouldn't lose range with Lee at PF. He shoots better than Jeff Green from everywhere except 3pt range.. in addition to being a vastly superior rebounder, he's also a much better passer, maybe one of the best passing bigs in the NBA right now.

Maybe our interior defense doesn't improve with Lee instead of Green, but our rebounding and offense would definitely improve substantially.. put a decent center next to Lee and there's your contending team.

Just b/c the team is good does it mean you rest on your laurels? I dunno.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct

Eell, I stay away from game threads too.

I wasn't talking specifically about anyone, it's just that the argument that Green is a 3 and Lee is a 4 it doesn't adress the defense part anyway.

My point is: if Lee was our 4, it would be as bad defensively as it is right now, and we would gain in rebounding and lose versatility and range.

Would that be worth it? At the cost of potentially screwing chemistry, I'd say no.

Also, Lee is the unquestioned best player on the Knicks (even if they play a very schizophrenic brand of basketball right now), what would happen when you turn him into the 3rd option?

I don't really think the Thunder is a championship team with Green too (and it's not with Lee, for that matter), in that sense I agree with you more than we disagree, but the fact is: this is a very young team on their very first season being good.

Durant and Westbrook will be around for a LONG time, we don't have to overreact to every single little mistake and blow up everything because of that.

@Bruno

Also, I tend to stay away from the game threads. They're way too negative and reactionary in my opinion.

@Bruno

You have "our" argument wrong. I don't kill Green personally, but I am in the group of his detractors.

We are not killing Green's talent. We wish he played the 3 and not the 4. David Lee is also a guy who is playing one position too low for his ability. David Lee should play the 4, but he plays the 5.

I've said before that if we got Lee, we would only be able to play small ball. That might work in stretches.

Green is a good player with good talent. He's put in a position of weakness when he had to body-up to a typical PF. That's all we're saying. It's not like we hate Jeff Green.

Joe :
I’m done worrying about whether Green is a 4 or not; whether he has enough vertical or long enough arms.
A good team has many facets, like a diamond. True Green is a stretch 4, but Collison isn’t, so it is a yin/yang thing. Brooks can go with what works for him. Also Ibaka has a completely otherworldly facet to him. Much like Thabo and Harden share the SG position and bring different things to the table.
Green is a great piece because he is finishing so much better at the rim, hitting his jimmies, and doesn’t demand touches. He takes what is there and doesn’t complain. He’s a perfect piece of a winning diamond in my opinion.

I agree 100%, you guys overanalyze things too much.

if you only read the gameday threads you could have thought it was last season and we've got 20 wins...

the same guys that kill Green for his D keep advocating for David Lee, who's a TERRIBLE defender (trust me, I watch enough Knicks games to make my stomach sick), he's got no length and is abused every single night (he let Andray Blatche get a 28/18 on him and that's just a recent memory).

he's not a good rebounder (which arguably Lee is), but this Thunder team is a good rebounding team... if we had a more physical center, a 10 rpg guy, it wouldn't be a big problem.

also, it's a stupidity to mess with the chemistry this team has right now, if you give away Green the possibility of messing with Russ, Durant and Harden is enormous... why take the gamble, when this team is winning and doubling last season's total?

for some perspective on how incredible that is, just look at the Hawks... they've taken 4 years to be on the same level we're in right now (we could be easily fighting for the #3 seed in the east) and the Thunder did it in ONE year with no major squad changes. (the Hawks got a major free agent, Joe Johnson, to get to this point)

let's just give this guys a little bit of trust, they deserve it after such an incredible turnaround.

I wished so hard for Ibaka to get in that game to do EXACTLY what he did with those elbows that it scared me a little when it happened. I think he gets the Thunder "guy you want to have your back in a bar-room brawl" award HANDS DOWN amirite?

@justin

I don't know how to evaluate his defense because I can't tell where the league is trending @ the PF position. Green does very well defensively against other stretch PFs. I usually feel like he wins that battle (his O vs their D and vice versa.)

He usually gets dominated by strong, post PFs. I usually feel like he loses that battle (sometimes dramatically loses, especially when taking rebounding into account.)

If the league is trending more towards stretch PFs, then Green will be great. If not, well it changes the equation to be sure.

Rebounding intensity/nose for the ball is definitely concerning. I had a mind to point out some interesting/surprising players that rebound better than him, but he's on page five of hoopdata's defensive rebounding rate, so that list would have a lot of names.

@Joe

*assuming he isn't overpaid

I'm not even sure defense is Jeff Green's biggest drawback it this point since he does make a lot of plays defensively and is getting better at being a pest (even if he's overmatched on the block at times).

His rebounding and nose for the ball bugs me more..

His offensive game has definitely improved though from earlier in the year and he's making contributions consistently on that end.

@Joe

I would agree with you IF Green were defending small forwards.

@Joe
Perfectly said Joe.

I'm done worrying about whether Green is a 4 or not; whether he has enough vertical or long enough arms.

A good team has many facets, like a diamond. True Green is a stretch 4, but Collison isn't, so it is a yin/yang thing. Brooks can go with what works for him. Also Ibaka has a completely otherworldly facet to him. Much like Thabo and Harden share the SG position and bring different things to the table.

Green is a great piece because he is finishing so much better at the rim, hitting his jimmies, and doesn't demand touches. He takes what is there and doesn't complain. He's a perfect piece of a winning diamond in my opinion.

houston lost to the pistons last night, furthur cementing our playoff chances

@justin

Whoah! We're on the same brainwave at the same time. Kinda weird.

@Ray

I would caution you not to get too caught up in the vertical jump. 90% of basketball plays, the vertical jump does not enter into the equation.

Also, comparing Nick's jump to Jeff's is a bit misleading, since those numbers are taken at draft time. There is no telling what their respective vertical jump was last night. Yes, the players get stronger, but they also experience aches and pains and fatigue.

Blocking out is the most important part of rebounding, body-ing up an offensive player who is trying to establish a low-block position, hands-up contesting your assignment on the perimeter... all of those activities are more important for rebounding and defense than a vertical jump. This is where length and weight and strength and a low center of gravity trump the vertical jump.

So when we say that Jeff is undersized, this is what we're talking about. It's a combination of his height (which is fine), his weight (which isn't too bad) his length (his biggest antagonist) and his strength / low center of gravity (which isn't great for a PF).

@Ray

Vertical doesn't matter much in most defensive situations.. especially max vertical which I'm assuming you're looking at. When defending the post, standing reach, and strength are most important. Of course you also have to know what you're doing, which is what helps Collison..

Vertical leap is probably one of the most overrated things in basketball, IMO.

Defensive Notes

• The score came up +17, still below average, but better than the disaster on Tuesday
• Westbrook didn’t have as hard of a time with Beno Udrih
• I didn’t check the boxscore, but I think Thabo and Harden played together a lot more in this game, so Harden was on Tyreke less. (Tyreke owned Harden last game)
• Thabo struggled mightily with Evans – I’d even say that this was his worse matchup of the season (yes that includes him guarding Lebron, Kobe, and Wade)
• The Kings seemed to go away from Carl Landry late in the game – he was killing Jeff Green.
• The Thunder played better defense in the second half – Westbrook and Green had key blocks
• The Kings are still a bad matchup for the Thunder – our bigs were basically ignoring their assignment to help Thabo on Evans – not good . . .

Nick Collison (+4)

James Harden (+4)

Russell Westbrook (+4)

Nenad Krstic (+3)

Eric Maynor (+2)

Serge Ibaka (+2)

Jeff Green (+2)

Kevin Durant (+1)

Thabo Sefolosha (-5)

Great game, great recap and great post Todd.

Go Thunder!

@Todd

@Ray
I concur.

Bring Ibaka on, we need some Danny Fortson up in this piece.

@Todd
very nice post

Yes, this was a good game for the Thunder, because it was turned into a good test of their composure and focus. I thought the end of the first half came at a good time, as that's about when things were really starting to flair up. Halftime, I figured Brooks and company would talk to the team about refocusing and not letting the nonsense get to them. Whatever was said and whoever said it, the message got through. They can build on this game for the playoffs.

Funny you mentioned wanting to have Westbrook with the ball late in the game. I caught myself thinking the very same thing tonight, and reflected on how that wasn't always true. Westbrook is probably my favorite player and has been since I first saw him last season. One of the early preseason games he had a shot blocked by the other team's center, got the rebound, and went right back at the guy. Maybe not the smartest decision, but it got my attention, and I had to admire his refusal to back down. But as much as I like his fire I haven't really thought of him as the guy you want with the ball in crunch time. But that's changing, and quickly. He hasn't lost that fire, but he's learning how to temper it, and turn it full on at the right time.

On Ibaka, he seems to stands up for himself against pretty much anybody, including Scott Brooks on occasion, like tonight. But I'd guess that's something he's had to do for most of his life given his background. But for all that, he clearly wants to learn and improve, and he tries for all he's worth. He has a great deal of confidence, again probably due in no small part from having to grow up awfully early in life. If that little tussle under the basket had happened on the street instead of in an NBA game, he probably not only throws that elbow but aims it squarely at the guy's nose. But he caught himself in time. All in all though, as this guy develops, I think he's going to be someone you want to play with, and not against. He's going to be a beast.

@andrew
Okay, you are right about harden. If you consider Nick Collison, he has a standing reach of 9ft and Green is 8-7. I have considered that he is 20lbs heavier. Collison's vertical is 33in compared to Green's 38in. There is a five inch difference, that clearly makes up the 3 inch standing reach. Yet Collison is a much better defender and really should be starting in my opinion.

Win is a win. Better to win ugly than lose pretty.

Great job to Russ.

Yep. Our guys love to say that. Jeff, Russ, and KD all say it pretty much every time they go through traffic to the hoop. My homerism leads me to believe they get fouled a lot.

@4razr
Yep. He didn't make contact and I don't think he had any intention on making contact. I think it was a threat, and I'm pretty sure it worked.

@Aenema I'm not surprised I think I heard about 5 "And 1" from our crew tonight

That should be, "elbow above the shoulder"

I love Ibaka fearlessness and attitude. I thought he crossed the line with the elbows. But I don't think he made contact, if he had (and was caught) he would have been ejected. I thought that elbow above the head was the same as a punch, which is an automatic ejection whether it connects or not. He was not flailing his elbows, which is a good thing, but even if a player just ran in to his elbow it's an automatic ejection. He did a great job of sending a message, that's for sure.

@Ray
He also has a half inch less reach than Harden..

Jeff Green is 6-9 with a wingspan of 7-1.25 wingspan. His weight is 235

@Ray

Jeff Green isn't big enough to guard most bigs. Short arms.. doesn't seem to have great strength either.

Btw, I'm pretty sure KD said "And 1 Mother F*****!" to his defender. He had his back to the ref, so I'm sure the ref thought it was directed to him. Regardless, I'm sure they don't let that kind of language fly.

"the other (point)

The other word to use for Westbrook is "HEART," the other that I want to make is that Jeff Green is a #5 draft pick and in his third year. Where is his progression? I know that he has been playing better lately, but he should be able to defend regardless of his offensive game. He is big enough to be physical to guard most of the bigs and small enough to guard the smalls. With that said, he did have a great block!

andrew :
maybe its just me, but i think nocioni, udrih, and collison could easily pass as being brothers..(discounting the height differences of course.)

we're all brothers

maybe its just me, but i think nocioni, udrih, and collison could easily pass as being brothers..(discounting the height differences of course.)

Despite Andres Nocioni's best effort, Thunder wins!

andrew :
I didnt think Ibaka did anything wrong.. when he cleared space the first time he certainly didnt seem to be aiming at anyone.. and then after that when he threw the little elbow flinch towards thompson it was more of a warning than anything…

It didn't even look like he hit him with the elbow.

I missed Russ getting hit, when did it happen?

@crick
Jeff Green's plus minus?