Podcast Update: We want to once again apologize to all those who’ve been having trouble downloading our podcast through iTunes on the iPhone. We’ve been in contact with both iTunes and Podbean in an attempt to correct the issue and really haven’t gotten anywhere. To correct the problem we’ve started a new iTunes station that shouldn’t have any trouble. So iPhone users, you should no longer have problems downloading our show. Thanks for your patience and onto the episode.
This week at TGR we talk to SLAM writer and Euroleague Adventures founder Nick Gibson who discusses: Groups A-D of the world championships, the potential impact Tibor Pleiss will have on the Thunder, looking back at picking Harden over Rubio, and so much more. All of that discussion is great, but the biggest part of this episode is our “World Championship Fantasy Basketball Draft” where we selected two teams that will go head to head in the 5 major statistical categories (points, assists, blocks, steals, rebounds). It’s TGR vs. Euroleague Adventures!
Thunderground Radio Euroleague Adventures
GUARD Derrick Rose Ricky Rubio
GUARD Vasilis Spanoulis Leandro Barbosa
GUARD Goran Dragic Juan Carlos Navarro
FORWARD Kevin Durant Linas Kleiza
FORWARD Ersan Ilyasova Hedo Turkoglu
FORWARD Boris Diaw Novica Velickovic
CENTER Anderson Varejao Luis Scola
CENTER Marc Gasol Tiago Splitter
We’re still trying to come up with what the wager should be. If you have any ideas let us know and leave a comment. Also subscribe to our new iTunes account as it should work for all media players (iPhone included) and will likely be our main account going into the future.
Episode Breakdown:
- 00:00 – 03:30: Intro
- 03:30 – 31:50: World Championship Discussion with SLAM writer Nick
- 31:50 – 46:53: World Championship Fantasy Draft
- 46:53 – 48:08: Ending
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justin :@Thomas
Chad Ford was high on Darko Milicic.
Thus he'll never be right about a player ever again!
@Thomas
Chad Ford was high on Darko Milicic. I've watched plenty of Ricky Rubio and I'm just not impressed.
@Anonymous
minny runs a triangle, the triangle de-emphasizes the point guard, that is probably the worst place for rubio to go. The triangle does will with fisher type guards who can hit the 3 when needed. But the offense is run through a wing and post player. rubio's lack of shooting will hurt him there, if they ran a more traditional offense it would be better for him.
@Thomas
rubio's euro numbers are much worse then say tony parker who is the best euro PG to come over angd the wolves system wont help him. For him to be the best he needs to go to the knicks or suns play in a high offense system that doesnt punish him for taking risks.
@Anonymous
He should be lower on the shooting scale, but high on the usage rate. The more they can put the ball in his hands over everyone not named Love, the better. I think Minny may not be well primed to use him, though, thanks to the triangle and generally lackluster players all around.
Justin, how many games of Rubio's have you watched? Ive seen 20+ and while he has many weaknesses, it is hard not to come away impressed with his impact on the game.
Looking at Euro stats is very deceiving because their official scorers arent as generous with giving out assists as their NBA counterparts. Also, the roles of players on teams at the Euro level is different. Rubio does not score often because he plays with excellent Euro players like Fran Vazquez, Erazem Lorbek and Juan Carlos Navarro.
Regarding his "mediocre" euro stats, its fair to point out that he is one of the best assist men in Euroball history. He has been top 3 in the league in /40 rankings for the past 2 years.
The NBA game will help Rubio further with the better floor spacing, hand check rules, and higher skill level. Ricky Rubio is already and above average +/- player in Europe and should translate those abilities. He should also have the ability to guard 2's in the NBA, opening up a space for a high scoring combo guard opposite him.
Remember that the smart people who have been following Rubio for some time (Givony, Ford, etc) are just as high on him now as they always have been.
As far as big, less atheletic point guards who cant shoot, Papaloukas from Greece has always had monster games against the US squads with a similar skill set as Rubio possesses now.
Just because we cant make a comparison to a current player does not mean a player cannot succeed in the NBA. That is a weak argument.
justin :@dream
catcher
You’re basically describing a Mark Jackson type, or Jason Williams. Someone who does not make mistakes, finds the open guys, but can’t put a team on his back. I don’t think that makes a star PG these days, especially with all the scoring PG’s we’ve got around like CP3 and Deron Williams.
Rubio is more risky than both those guys in terms of throwing passes in tight spots. He wont play it safe per say as much as Maynor does. You will be amazed at some of the passes he throws to guys streaking to the rim. Jason Williams was all flash and no substance when he was young, and Rubio is much risker than Mark.
@dream catcher
You're basically describing a Mark Jackson type, or Jason Williams. Someone who does not make mistakes, finds the open guys, but can't put a team on his back. I don't think that makes a star PG these days, especially with all the scoring PG's we've got around like CP3 and Deron Williams.
dream catcher :good post Keith. The Kidd comparisons are accurate, he isn’t nearly as athletic as Kidd was back in the day, but Rubio has sneaky quickness, and his lateral quickness is just fine. He is filling out in his body, so good size, and with his ability to run a team he will be a success.
A Superstar? not sure, but definitely a top 5 PG who leads his teams to wins.
Top 5 PG is a huge stretch. Ricky Rubio's another one of those guys who is invariably defined with superlative language. A top 5 PG who can't shoot, doesn't have elite athleticism? Has that happened aside from Jason Kidd? Unless Ricky Rubio is Gary Payton on defense (he's not), then I just don't see it.
There's more to running a team than being calm and making the right decisions. Sure, Rubio might be able to do that, but that doesn't make anyone a star player.
justin :@Keith
I even have a difficult time envisioning him as the second best player on a title contender. I dunno. Maybe a third piece, I’d buy that. Like Mark Jackson’s role on the Pacer teams that were good.
Rubio is never going to fill up the stat sheet with points, but I think if the shot is there he will take it, his mechanics have improved a lot the past few years. What he will do is run the team to near perfection, give all his teammates easier looks at the basket, be a pest defensively, and be a great leader(he has great floor generalship).
I' not saying we should have took him over Harden, I've cooled off on that, mainly because I'm excited to see where Harden can go as long as he lays off the sweets.
good post Keith. The Kidd comparisons are accurate, he isn't nearly as athletic as Kidd was back in the day, but Rubio has sneaky quickness, and his lateral quickness is just fine. He is filling out in his body, so good size, and with his ability to run a team he will be a success.
A Superstar? not sure, but definitely a top 5 PG who leads his teams to wins.
@Keith
I even have a difficult time envisioning him as the second best player on a title contender. I dunno. Maybe a third piece, I'd buy that. Like Mark Jackson's role on the Pacer teams that were good.
rubio is a starting quality PG outside of the wolves, but not a multiple allstar player.
@justin
I think Rubio is a star on certain teams, and Tinsley 2.0 on others. Specifically, Rubio isn't a guy that can be the foundation of your team. He can't be where you start in an NBA that prizes scoring above all else. But, if he's the second piece on your team, he could definitely be a star. He would fail on a team without a star, but he would explode on a team with one.
He's kind of the perfect example of not building around a PG. You know he'll make everyone around him better, but he'll never be good enough on his own to carry the team for lengthy stretches when his teammates aren't that good. I think he'll be the kind of star that takes a good team to being a great team, but won't be able to carry a bad team like a superstar.
@Keith
If Rubio is going to be a star PG he's basically going to have to be Jason Kidd. I have my doubts, though. That's a once in a generation talent, and while Rubio has plenty of stuff going his way, I don't see his game being nearly as prolific in the NBA the way half court defense is played. I see a lot more Hinrich / Tinsley in him than Kidd.
I like Rubio. I think he can be a lot like a Jason Kidd. He's big for his position, plays smart in every phase, and is only poor at outside shooting. The kid might be an elite defender. I think a lack of athleticism is overblown. He's not lead-footed. He's not Mike Bibby. Rubio can get where he needs to go at NBA speeds. What he may lack in comparison to Westbrook he makes up for in vastly superior positioning.
Rubio isn't going to get caught off his man because of ball movement. He's not going to constantly go under screens against good shooters. He's not going to barrel into the lane for a contested jumper.
He gets a bad rap for being a bad shooter, but really, his only truly poor year was when he was recovering from a broken hand. He has solid mechanics and good awareness of when a shot is a good one. He may never be a Steve Nash level shooter, but I think the ability to find open men and use his body to create space is severely underrated in the NBA.
Rubio Rubio!
29 minutes, 3:2 A:T, 6 Pts (0/2 3P)
26 minutes, 11:4 A:T, 8 Pts (0/2 3P)
----------------------------------------
55 minutes, 14:6 A:T, 14 Pts (0/4 3P)
@justin
I think Rubio is very overrated. I think people overrate him because of his age.. he is 19 and has time to develop. You mentioned Jamal Tinsley in one of your post.. i think thats a great comparison. If Rubio comes over i think we can expect an improved version of Tinsley. Thats not bad at all.
Rod Strickland (IMO) and Baron Davis for sure are better athletes than Ricky Rubio. Rajon Rondo shoots over 50% from the field he's not a great scorer but he's great at finishing; better than what Rubio's shown to me. Also probably a better athlete, definitely stronger.
I'm speaking from the standpoint of Rubio's skillset. Russ is our 'second star' but he's not really a star yet in the broader sense that I feel fans of Rubio are already bestowing him. I'm a big proponent of stats but all the stats say on Rubio that has any bearing on how he'll do in the USA is that he can't shoot.
@justin
Rajon Rondo?
Rubio is a coin flip, just have to wait and see I guess... but drafting him over Harden? No way... I was scared we were going to get Thabeet!
dream catcher :Rubio has an incredible feel for the game/BBall IQ, and a phenominal passer. He will find a way to win games for whatever team he is on.
You underrate guys like this(ex Maynor)
Show me the guys on that list above who Ricky Rubio compares to favorably? You can have a high basketball IQ and be the best passer but that's not enough to be a star PG in the NBA. Someone like Mark Jackson had those qualities; he was a solid starter for many years and had decent longevity, but he was not a star. Those types of players just don't rate as star quality in the NBA, especially these days with the complexity of defensive scheming. Could you imagine Eric Maynor as a star PG in the NBA, ever? If he does not acquire a jump shot or reliable offense it simply won't happen. That's basically the same story with Ricky Rubio unless he completely busts the odds.
You show me one NBA star who got there because of their "feel for the game" and I'll show you one hundred scrubs who didn't have the talent.
Rubio has an incredible feel for the game/BBall IQ, and a phenominal passer. He will find a way to win games for whatever team he is on.
You underrate guys like this(ex Maynor)
Shame Serge isn't eligible in your mock...
BTW wtf is up with Serge tweeting @ someone with the username "cu*onmya**" ?? I really hope he doesn't get involved with some former stripper and have unnecessary distractions like Dirk did a couple years back.
Can anyone in this podcast explain why Ricky Rubio would have been better for the Thunder than James Harden? I heard 'he will rack up assists like it's nothing'. Does that make you a good player in the NBA? Jamaal Tinsley racked up NBA assists like it was nothing, too, and he was effectively out of the league at 29 yeares old.
I think a lot of the Rubio heads look at his success in the international game and don't comprehend that he's going to struggle a lot against NBA half court defenses. Without being able to shoot, and without being able to play above the rim, he's not going to be able to score. A PG who is not a threat to score in this league isn't going to be an elite PG unless he's an otherworldly defender or he's Jason Kidd. Even someone like John Stockton who didn't score a lot in his best years made a living on the pick and roll; defenders couldn't go under those screens. NBA half court defenses will pick apart a ball handler that can't shoot and does not have elite athleticism.
Here's a list of every PG who made an All Star team in the last ~20 years (excluded Magic, Isiaih):
John Stockton 10
Jason Kidd 10
Gary Payton 9
Steve Nash 7
Tim Hardaway 5
Chauncey Billups5
Mark Price 4
Chris Paul 3
Tony Parker 3
Kevin Johnson 3
Steve Francis 3
Gilbert Arenas 3
Terry Porter 2
Stephon Marbury 2
Baron Davis 2
Terrell Brandon 2
Nick Van Exel 1
Deron Williams 1
Rajon Rondo 1
Derrick Rose 1
Jameer Nelson 1
Mark Jackson 1
Devin Harris 1
Sam Cassell 1
Mookie Blaylock 1
Dana Barros 1
B.J. Armstrong 1
Kenny Anderson 1
It seems to me Ricky Rubio's skill set meshes much more with the one hit wonders than the guys who've made multiple All Star teams. Even then, it's tenuous. Sam Cassell, Jameer Nelson, Dana Barros, Deron Williams all great shooters. Mookie was an elite defender. Anderson, Harris, Rose all elite athletes. We've left with, what? B.J. Armstrong and Mark Jackson?
Rubio just does not fit the profile of a successful PG in the NBA. For him to succeed he'll either have to seriously develop his game to the point where he either has an effective jumpshot or improve his foot speed so he can beat NBA defenses off the dribble. Suggesting that him and Russell Westbrook can successfully co-exist barring these assumptions is lunacy. James Harden was the correct pick, and if you're going to argue about anyone else it should be Stephen Curry.