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With Darnell Mayberry’s tweet and Chris Silva’s blog reporting that Serge Ibaka will start at center for the Thunder tonight, I couldn’t help but remember the plethora of conversations, discussions, debates, and name calling incidents that have centered around where Ibaka should play and if he’s a true 4, a tweener 4/5 or somewhere in between.
So, let’s have a look at the potential positives and negatives of starting Ibaka at center for the Thunder’s first preseason game against the Charlotte Bobcats and beyond.
Pro: Serge will get to play with the starting unit. This is obviously a no-brainer for both sides of the “Serge is a PF/C” argument because both want to see him eventually emerge as a starter, so getting as much time as he could with the starting unit is a good thing considering the fact that he would have been coming off of the bench in any scenario not involving him starting at center.
Con: He won’t be playing at the position he’s most well suited for and spent the majority of last season at. While some would argue that any time on the floor is good time (and I typically support this idea), some other individuals would also claim that Serge seeing time at center will only highlight some of his deficiencies from last season, namely his poor boxing out and man-to-man iso defense against bigger opponents, unless he has significantly improved those already, and might cause him to play differently when he returns to PF when Krstic and Collison get healthy.Pro: Cole Aldrich can be brought along at a slower pace so that he can contribute more fully in the season when he’s ready, despite the injuries to both Thunder starters at center from last season.
Con: Why did the Thunder draft up for Aldrich, a defensive minded “center of the future,” if they’re not going to play him? And we’re not talking about a real game here, we’re talking about pre-season. Isn’t pre-season meant for stuff like this, especially for a guy who didn’t get any run in Summer League?
Pro: The Bobcats have DeSagana Diop, Nazr Mohammed and Kwame Brown as their centers. I’m quite positive Ibaka can show off some improvement against this triumvirate, especially since he will have a speed and athleticism advantage against any of the three.
Con: They are all bangers, which Ibaka is just not. He’s not a back to the basket guy so he could be in for a rough go of it on defense, especially since Diop has two inches and almost 50 lbs on Serge.
Pro: We get to see if Serge can co-exist with Jeff Green down low on the block.
Con: I’m pretty sure what the answer to the above scenario is…and it probably won’t be pretty.
Pro: The Thunder will have one of the fastest and most athletic starting units in the entire league, if not maybe the universe. This group should be able to run and do tons of damage in the open court against anyone.
Con: Who is going to score in the post with this group? And didn’t the Lakers show just how costly no low-post scoring/being forced to rebound with two undersized frontcourt players is?
Pro: Ibaka will probably get more minutes on the court in general now (not just with the starting unit). More playing time typically equals more improvement in a shorter time period for young players.
Con: Those are minutes at center, which means Aldrich and Mullens won’t see those minutes there and I’d say they need them just as much, if not much, much, MUCH more, than Ibaka does at that spot.
Pro: The Thunder should see one of the highest increases of blocked shots at the center position in the history of mankind from Krstic to Ibaka.
Con: The Thunder might also see one of the highest increases in fouls committed or fouled out games at the center position in the history of mankind.
Pro: Ibaka dunks.
Con: NOT APPLICABLE.
Pro: Aldrich/Mullens will not feel entitled to the starting spot and competition will still reign supreme for playing time/starting spots at each position.
Con: What about playing time competition at the PF spot now? And couldn’t Aldrich and Mullens both feel a little hopeless about their ability to find any time on the floor if they still didn’t get a start despite BOTH Thunder centers going down?
Pro: There will be an actual, tangible answer of if Serge Ibaka can play center at the NBA level and not be wasted there since he seems to be more suited for the PF spot.
Con: Some people aren’t going to like the answer, no matter what it is—especially if the Thunder traded up to get Aldrich for nothing—or if it’s plain as day that Ibaka should be the starting PF and unseat the incumbent favorite, sooner rather than later. See, that’s a no win situation for a lot of people.
Except me, since I get to be/have to be impartial with things like this. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go scratch my head at Brooks’ decision (and yes, I read his reasons) to start Ibaka at center with the “future of the franchise” centers watching from the bench while desperately needing reps in a low pressure atmosphere (hey, kind of like pre-season!) if they ever want to become the future.
See, totally impartial.
@J.G.
It's not really the point of the thread, but Howard was a PF in high school and was universally expected to be a PF in the NBA. I don't know how else to put it...
That doesn't mean Ibaka could do the same thing—he never will because he simply doesn't have the frame that Howard does.
It's telling how much time people have to spend defending Green (^^^^^) despite the fact that this thread hardly has anything to do with him.
I'd prefer to have Ibaka at PF because his skill set is best suited there (just like Green's is best suited for the 3). People take that as some kind of indictment or insult—it's not, it's just a fact. Look at his skillset: face up post game, check, inability to consistently guard other and bigger centers, check, lack of boxing-out discipline, check, ability to guard players on the perimeter, check, ability to stretch the defense, check. All traits of a power forward.
Now, that said, the point of the article is whether it's worth it to start Green and Ibaka at positions they are capable of playing, though they are not optimized in. You're putting your "best 5 players" out there at positions they can at least hold down, so it's hard to begrudge the Thunder for that.
OTOH, it's hard to envision the Thunder stopping the Lakers on three straight possessions in the post with the huge size, weight, and height advantage at both interior positions. I think that's what the main purpose of the argument boils down to: is it worth the Thunder having a better record and more dominant performances during the regular season, all the time knowing you are less-suited to take on the team you would be likely to see in the WCF? Or is smarter to get Aldrich and Mullens prepared throughout the season, while losing more games, to have somebody who will actually be able to guard Bynum and Gasol inside (and keep them off the boards, at least to an extent)?
Food for thought.
@Andon
Couldn't disagree more. Collison plays a very fundamental game as a center and has been doing it since he came into the league. Is he undersized? Yes. That does not mean he is always playing like a power forward. He has always been very effective at the center position.
@Clark Matthews
And you might want to re-check those facts. The Lakers didn't lose the championship when Bynum played, they lost when he DIDN'T play.
The last two championships the Lakers have won have been with Bynum in the lineup. The only won they've lost has been without him. Coincidence?
@Clark Matthews
Let's see here, Tim Duncan (we all know he's a center), Pau Gasol (he hasn't earned it from being skilled, he's a center BECAUSE he's skilled in the post with his back-to-the basket), Shaquille O'Neal, Ben Wallace, and don't forget David Robinson early in the decade, just off the top of my head. And if you want to go back a bit further into the 90's, there's Hakeem as well.
In fact, the ONLY team who has won a championship without a legitimate center (and we all know that is more about play-style and skillset than just being slow, tall, etc) in the last 20 years is the Chicago Bulls, which since they had MJ is the exception that proves the rule.
And Dwight Howard was only ever seen as a center, that's EXACTLY where he was expected to play in the NBA. He averaged 12 points, 10 rebounds, and 1.66 blocks as a center his rookie year (becoming the youngest player EVER to average a double-double), so I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about him needing protection or being pegged as a PF.
Just because Chad Ford or ESPN had a PF next to Dwight Howard's name coming out of high school doesn't mean actual people in the NBA ever thought of Dwight Howard as anything but a center, especially since Draft Express had a C next to his name as well and the Orlando Magic drafted him to play center.
And I'm not arguing with you about Ibaka not being big enough or long enough to play center in the NBA; he is. My argument is that you're wrong in saying that Dwight Howard and Ibaka were ever thought of as PF for the same reasons, because Ibaka is a PF because of how he plays the game, which is not at all the case with Howard, who plays like a center and always has.
0 rebounds 4 points in the first half against a joke of a front court last night in the first half. This is almost to easy.
@J.G.
What true centers?
Kendrick Perkins won a championship playing as a true center, I guess.
Was Robert Horry a true center?
Bynum has been hurt for both of the Lakers' championships (they lost when he played).
The Bulls won a lot with the legendary Luc Longley.
Basically, I see players being labeled a "true center" two ways. The first is the easy way: Being seven foot tall and/or slow and unathletic. (Aldrich is only 6'10", so you draw your own conclusions on why he is the great hope at the five.) Serge Ibaka, who is approximately the same size as Aldrich, has a chance to be a "true center" in the preferred way, by dominating at the position. Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard are two players who are now considered to be "true centers" from that method. Gasol has earned the accolades from being skilled, and Howard from being freakishly strong and athletic. Neither was expected to play center, and early in their careers, fans of teams those guys played for complained about the GM's not getting a real big man to protect those guys.
@Keith
There is only one Dwight Howard...and he was originally supposed to be a power forward for the same reasons everyone gives for Ibaka being a true PF.
This is a ridiculous article. Serge Ibaka is a young player who came out of nowhere last year. For you to pencil him in as a "only a PF" at this point in his career is hilarious. You would rather fabricate some tension between Ibaka and Green rather than allow a young player to test out a new position during the preseason? He is still learning and still growing. All Brooks needs out of that position is blocked shots and solid defense, which Ibaka can provide. Cole Aldrich is smaller and less athletic than Ibaka, for you to call him "the future" is also ridiculous. He was good value at where they got him, they didn't give up much to get him, and they still have Mullens at C, who is ready to break out. I think you are also living in 19990's mindset. The lines between positions are totally blurred now--for crying out loud Durant is almost 7 feet tall and he plays like a 2-guard. You need to lighten up, they will but the best 5 out there, and as you said, they will have the chance to outrun everyone.
I do think things have changed in the NBA. It's not about 7-footers anymore, it's about length and skills. Charlotte has plenty of huge 7-footers and they're starting Boris Diaw tonight. They'd like to start a 7-footer, but they need someone who can play. I feel the same way about the Thunder.
Another point is that it's not about having the one superstar center, those guys are incredibly rare. You can count them on one hand in this league, and most of them are drafted #1 or #2 overall. I like how many resources Presti has used to put together a committee of centers. Ibaka, Aldrich, Mullens and Pleiss are going to be nice group of young centers. I think you can win a championship with that group.
I never lost faith in ya JG. Put that chip on your shoulder and go prove your worth.
I don't care where Ibaka plays, to be perfectly honest. I think he will have a positive impact just being out on the floor. Remember, he had some pretty nice defensive stops last year on Pau Gasol and Tim Duncan. I think he can defend the post if given a little playing time.
Much passion surrounding this team right now. Hang on and enjoy the ride! GO THUNDER!
There are a bunch of absolutes in that post that are inaccurate but that's ok. Ibaka has played effectively at center and green has guarded well at times. I've seen it. We'll see what happens.
@J.G.
My point was that +/- isn't showing that Ibaka is necessarily better or worse at PF or C. I realize if Ibaka is a center we have a weakness at PF. But if we slot Ibaka into the starting PF role, I hate to break everyone's hearts, but after next season we have a pretty big hole at center instead. Aldrich hasn't proven much yet, and I feel good about him down the line, but asking him next year to start at center on a contender is a bit of a stretch.
I think there is a hole to be plugged long term at both PF and C on this team, and with maturation Ibaka can plug (at max) one of those. I think short-term, Ibaka at PF makes more sense, but long term we need to see how he fills out, where he feels most comfortable playing, how Aldrich matures, and who we could potentially sign, draft or develop to move into the spot Ibaka does not take.
@James
This season is going to be a lot of fun, to be sure. The issues with Green and Ibaka are about their play to date. Green has shown no ability to defend the post and hasn't yet shown the consistent offense to make up for it. Ibaka was just a rookie, and I expect him to make a leap this year. But to date he has not played a good game for a center, not for the center we need to take this team to the next level. If he proves me wrong, more power to him and the team, I would happily eat my words.
Ibaka's best running mate was Collison. There is no way Collison is a Center; he's a Power Forward! Hence, Ibaka played Center all last year. Really the difference between power forward and center is negligible. Both are post positions. It's all about match-ups. Collison guarded the better offensive post player and Ibaka roamed and blocked shots.
Keith :@JamesIf Green still has such a bad +/- and we win a championship, it will be because the rest of the team explodes and makes him obsolete or he explodes and becomes a fantastic PF. I think you are overstating things with this line of reasoning. No one hates our own players just to hate them. Everyone seems to have a pretty high opinion of both Jeff and Ibaka, just at the 3 and 4, respectively.
Would it prove something if we were a top 3 seed with Ibaka at the C spot? Yes. It would prove we are the third best team in the West. Would it prove Ibaka wouldn’t be better at the PF spot? Not necessarily. We are looking at what is best for the team long term. KD could have stayed at the 2, but he’s so much better at the 3. Ibaka may do well at the 5, but that doesn’t mean he won’t be better at the 4. When building a team you look to maximize your best players. If Ibaka is the missing piece, then we should be putting him where he can do the most.
That's a fair post. I'm just not as convinced as most of you that Green can't be a solid 4 and that Ibaka can't be as effective at the 5 as he can at the 4. It will be fun to see what happens.
@James
If Green still has such a bad +/- and we win a championship, it will be because the rest of the team explodes and makes him obsolete or he explodes and becomes a fantastic PF. I think you are overstating things with this line of reasoning. No one hates our own players just to hate them. Everyone seems to have a pretty high opinion of both Jeff and Ibaka, just at the 3 and 4, respectively.
Would it prove something if we were a top 3 seed with Ibaka at the C spot? Yes. It would prove we are the third best team in the West. Would it prove Ibaka wouldn't be better at the PF spot? Not necessarily. We are looking at what is best for the team long term. KD could have stayed at the 2, but he's so much better at the 3. Ibaka may do well at the 5, but that doesn't mean he won't be better at the 4. When building a team you look to maximize your best players. If Ibaka is the missing piece, then we should be putting him where he can do the most.
@DXL
wallace and perkins would not be able to play PF very well, they are not good enough on the perimeter to guard fast PFs or close out on jump shooting ones. Its not height or weight that im using, im using ability to play another position
J.G. :@DXL
Good discussion everybody, by the way. And just think, there will be actual basketball played so we won’t have to rely on this stuff anymore!
Amen to that. I'm guessing Ibaka plays is planted as the starting center for the year and we're a top 3 seed. Would that prove anything? Not for most of you. I'm guessing even if we won the championship some of you would still be griping about Green's +/-. : )
Rodman wasn't a
Jackson :@James we are not talkign career average now are we…how about when he played with Jordan which is what we are talking about right? 6.5 rebounds and 11.5 points in 26 minutes…sorry thats not to shabby with the team he was on…oh and go ahead and add Rodman on that list as well..care to list his Career numbers? Didnt think so.
Rodman wasn't a center, I'd take Dennis Rodman at the 4 in a heartbeat. Ibaka averaged one rebound less a game in 8 less minutes a game at the 4 at 20 years old. This is stupid.
@James
we are not talkign career average now are we...how about when he played with Jordan which is what we are talking about right? 6.5 rebounds and 11.5 points in 26 minutes...sorry thats not to shabby with the team he was on...oh and go ahead and add Rodman on that list as well..care to list his Career numbers? Didnt think so.
@DXL
Oh there's a bow, my friend. Your point proves it even more because where would Ibaka be playing if Green isn't extended (even though he will be, I'd guess). If Green is the problem at PF, then who is the solution?
The answer to either problem is the same: Ibaka at PF.
Good discussion everybody, by the way. And just think, there will be actual basketball played so we won't have to rely on this stuff anymore!
J.G. :@ACAnd who is starting tonight at PF? And who will continue to be paired with Ibaka in the front court if Ibaka is forced to play center?
I must genuinely thank you for putting the big red bow on this article because I honestly could not have summed that up any better than you just did.
What was Green's +/- with and without Durant last year? Green was in pretty much the whole time Durant was out. That would probably reflect poorly on his +/-?
@J.G.
Agreed, but the problem isn't Ibaka, it's Green. And I think the Thunder realize this. Ibaka has a longterm future with the team, he's probably the 3rd most valuable Thunder player long-term, and Green can't get a contract extension beyond his rookie contract.
No red bow.
Jackson :@James “They were average centers that held their own defensively”…pretty much my point right there. And would you like a rundown of the Centers in the league at that time? I’m pretty sure you can list 5 off the top of you’re head and all 5 are pretty unreal. Being able to hold your own with that list of guys is good enough for a championship..Serge on the otherhand is not a Center at all so I dont see where the arguement comes.
Those guys were average centers for any period of time. None of them were athletic. Big oafs pretty much. Luc Longley the best of the bunch had a career average of 7.2 points and 4.9 rebounds.
@AC
And who is starting tonight at PF? And who will continue to be paired with Ibaka in the front court if Ibaka is forced to play center?
I must genuinely thank you for putting the big red bow on this article because I honestly could not have summed that up any better than you just did.
@J.G.
Ibaka's production at C vs. PF last year has a lot to do with who he was playing with. Almost all of his center lineups have Green at PF, whereas most of his PF line-ups have Collison at center. Collison was our best big in terms of +/- and Green was our worst.
@James
"They were average centers that held their own defensively"...pretty much my point right there. And would you like a rundown of the Centers in the league at that time? I'm pretty sure you can list 5 off the top of you're head and all 5 are pretty unreal. Being able to hold your own with that list of guys is good enough for a championship..Serge on the otherhand is not a Center at all so I dont see where the arguement comes.
Jackson :@Keith you are 100% correct Keith, Jordan was the best player to ever step on the court and yet even the real “king” had good centers.
Good centers? Will Purdue, Luc Longly and and old Bill Cartright were good centers? They were average centers that held their own defensively but nobody remeber their names if they had played for the Nets.
@Keith
Exactly like Green...I can not blame a Coach for putting players in spots to help them win, because their job is on the line every season. I also can not blame the player for bolting when they get the opportunity to play what they are better fitted to play.
Jackson :@James No that’s not it, one plays like a Center and one plays like a power forward. Kevin Garnett is a 7 footer and you don’t see him playing the 5 do you? I’m sorry but this size garbage means nothing. Garnett is playing PF because that’s his play style, oh and who did Serge say he wanted to fit his game like…Sorry Serge I will root for you when you head to you’re new team that actually knows where to put you.
He made one comment about wanting to be like one of the great NBA power forward and he's penciled in to that role that. KG is a stick too. Ibaka was a stick at the time of the draft but he's gained a bunch of weight since then.
@Jackson
Like Green? Even if he gets moved in the next year, I'm probably going to become a minor fan of his new team. He's a great guy, just needs to be able to play a different position and role.
I have no idea where some of you are coming from...the way some of you guys are looking at it they might as well put Durant in the 5 spot because well you know...he's tall, lets just go ahead and forget that Durants game would be wasted at the 5....but he's tall so it would work right? Sure Serge is tall enough to play Center, but I think the arguement is wouldn't he be a better PF with his set of skills.
@James
No that’s not it, one plays like a Center and one plays like a power forward. Kevin Garnett is a 7 footer and you don’t see him playing the 5 do you? I'm sorry but this size garbage means nothing. Garnett is playing PF because that’s his play style, oh and who did Serge say he wanted to fit his game like...Sorry Serge I will root for you when you head to you’re new team that actually knows where to put you.
@DXL
Wallace was a 4 time DPOY who led the league in rebounds and blocks several times. Perkins isn't all that great, true, but putting Ibaka in Wallace's class because he is a little taller is ignoring the whole fact that being a true center makes no claims on physical ability attributes, only game.
@Jackson
I'd argue that Jordan was truly the best ever, but that's neither here nor there. No team has ever won without a very good big man.
@f5alcon
Ben Wallace? Kendrick Perkins? These are true centers but Ibaka isn't?
Wallace is 6'8" with long arms, Perkins is 6'10" with long arms. Ibaka is 6'10" with long arms.
He's a little lighter than both those guys but he'll get heavier as he matures. He obviously has the frame to put on muscle and weight.
@Keith
you are 100% correct Keith, Jordan was the best player to ever step on the court and yet even the real "king" had good centers.
I didn't say it was a developed back to the basket game. I said it was the best we've got and Ibaka is not undersized at center. 6'10 255 with a good reach and outstanding athleticism is not undersized. He's same size as Aldrich with about 10 more inches of vert. Aldrich has a little longer reach but that's it.
@J.G.
Don't forget that even Jordan's teams had Rodman and Grant, both very good (All Stars) PFs.
@tim
I will give you the freakishly athletic, but plain pathetic in the paint. That lineup will get you to the playoffs for sure, but it’s just a pipe dream to think that could even sniff a championship.
@James
Unless you discount blocks (which are all about timing and body movement in the air - which sounds a lot like finesse), then yes, Ibaka is a finesse player. He is a face up jump shooter who can dunk, but who can't in the NBA when it is an alley or they are wide open under the basket. Even his defense is far more about jumping higher than everyone else and having quick hands than it is about muscling anyone out of the paint.
It's not a bad thing to be a finesse player. In Ibaka's case, he just needs to pick his spots more and use footwork as much as hops.
@tim
Collison was our best center last year. And I believe he was the best pair with every single other big man we used. As for that being a freakishly athletic lineup, how much does that help when we aren't a fast paced team? If we are running on the break, we don't need 4 guys beating their man down the floor, just one. If we are running back to cover the defense, how much will it matter when Green and Ibaka showed last year they didn't play well together.
@f5alcon
Every single champion since Jordan have had true centers.
And one last thing, last season the Thunder were a +36 in Net Points when Ibaka played at PF.
When he played at C they were a -29.
Don't believe me? http://www.82games.com/0910/09OKC13.HTM
Look at "Production by Position."
I'm not sure why Collison (who I like and think is a pretty funny dude) or Krstic are even in the conversation...Ibaka is clearly the best option and more than proved his value/worth when given good minutes last season...I think Aldrich has a bright future, but in the meantime, Serge needs to be in the game...I LOVE the idea of the following lineup:
PG-Westbrook
SG-Harden
SF-Durant
PF-Green
C-Ibaka
thats a scary, mulit-dimensional, and freakishly athletic lineup
half of the last champions had true center, detroit had wallace, lakers, heat had shaq, boston had perkins.
@James
Well I don't think getting into a "Nuh uh, I know what I saw" argument is going to accomplish anything here, but...if I were, it would probably go something like:
"Nuh uh! If you're actually telling me that Ibaka has a well developed back-to-the-basket post game despite this board screaming for a low post offensive player in the draft (and your example being primarily based off of an Ibaka summer league performance, no less) then I guess I'll just ignore the mountain of visual evidence of him shooting mainly jumpers, being unable to score with this back to the basket against NBA level 4's and 5's and the consensus that the Thunder STILL have no low post scoring option, which will continue to hurt them going forward."
Yep, not going to get into that argument with you.
My only question to you would be this, is the Thunder's best 5 players in terms of a chance for success really include two undersized front court players?
He's not a finesse player by any means. He's very physical. Not sure what games you watched. He wasn't our best at blocking out but he was a physical player. Neither he or collison blocked out on the most important play of the year.
By best five that give us the best chance to be successful. Is that better? Obviously you don't put 3 centers out there if you have 3 good centers. I thought that was a given. Those 5 are our best players IMO and give us the best chance to be successful.
@DXL
I'd like him in the 260 range, honestly. But if he truly is 250-255, that would be great. Though, his issue of boxing out was less about weight and more about footwork/awareness. He didn't even try much of the time, and relied upon his athleticism to get over guys who would have been much easier just to box out.
The weight thing, for me, was about one on one defense in the post. He's so athletic that he gambled a whole lot instead of simply trying to hold ground. It was also why he ended up fouling a lot. He wanted to finesse the defense (and honestly, blocks have a ton of finesse to them) instead of using his strength. I attributed a lot of that to his slender build, which is why I hope more weight will give him the strength and confidence to do more fundamental defense than athletic defense.