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It’s officially time to ask the question: Should Serge Ibaka start?

by Royce Young on November 16, 2010 at 1:11 pm 303 Comments

Larry W. Smith/NBAE/Getty Images

I’ll be honest. I really, really wanted to avoid having this discussion.

Not because I’m afraid of the discussion it’ll start or because I have some weird love affair with Jeff Green. (Though I really do love the guy.) It’s just something you’d rather not have to talk about. In some ways, it’s good because that means that Serge Ibaka is playing fantastic basketball and could possibly be worthy of starting.

But the other side is, that means that Jeff Green hasn’t played well enough to keep that starting spot. That means Green goes to the bench and the Thunder rotation really gets a complete makeover. Which is something we’re not used to, seeing how the same starting five played in 76 of the 82 games last season.

But the question is just unavoidable now. Oklahoma City is 3-0 with Ibaka starting and after his career-high 22 points to go with 11 rebounds and four blocks against the Jazz Monday night, Ibaka has forced his way into the discussion. I mean, with that jumpshot, those athletic abilities and that size, Ibaka is nearly a perfect, prototypical starting power forward. Which is what we all want, right? Plus, he’s not even begun to scratch what he can be.

So who should start the remaining 72 games? Jeff Green or Serge Ibaka?

But let’s think rationally about this. Shaking up the starting five 10 games in because Green tweaked an ankle seems a bit, I don’t know, over-reactionary. Green has been mediocre this season and actually, has been pretty good if you just look at traditional stats (18.2 ppg, 6.5 rpg). But we all saw him overmatched by LaMarcus Aldridge and we’ve seen him struggle from 3 and we’ve seen him have issues in the post.

Look at Ibaka’s though. Serge is averaging 12.2 ppg, 7.9 rpg and 2.5 bpg in eight fewer minutes a night than Gree. Uncle Jeff has a PER of 15.4 right now while Ibaka’s is soaring at 21.3. Ibaka is currently sixth in the league in field goal percentage (58.8) and 85 percent from the line. When you compare the two, Ibaka has been better than Green this season, no doubt.

At the same time though, how can we forget the huge plays Green’s made? The save against Portland. The big driving layup against the Pistons? The big first half against the Bulls opening night that carried the Thunder. Green’s done his part to help this group win. But now it’s a question of where can he do that same part most effectively? As the starting power forward or off the bench?

I’m about halfway through writing this and honestly, I haven’t made up my mind. I do think the sample size might be a bit small to completely make this call. But I definitely have one foot firmly on the “Start Serge” wagon. I’m pretty outstanding at straddling a fence if you haven’t figured out by now.

The question you've got to ask is, "Will starting Ibaka make this team better? Will the Thunder win more games as a result?" If you think the answer to that is yes, it's a no-brainer.

The problem is once you do it, you can’t really go back. It’s a big call to make. And if you make that call after four starts for Ibaka, it almost seems knee-jerky. Brooks has shown that he’s completely content to trot out a consistent starting five and then work in a rotation off that. So if he makes the call to start Ibaka and use Green as a sixth man, it has to be for the long haul. There can’t be flip-flopping back and forth. At least I don’t think so.

It’s interesting because the better Ibaka plays, the less and less money Sam Presti probably feels like he has to offer Green. Obviously Uncle Jeff has value and can be a solid contributing player on this team, but if Green wants to be a starter and be paid starter money, Ibaka could be cutting into his pay. At least if he’s staying with the Thunder. So in other words, Ibaka may be making Presti’s decisions a bit easier.

Then again, on the other hand, the better Ibaka plays the more money he’s going to require. One of those rock and a hard place things here.

And don’t give me the nonsense of starting Ibaka in place of Nenad Krstic. Ibaka is a natural 4 in the same way Jimmy McNulty was natural poh-leese. Plus, a frontcourt of Green and Ibaka hasn’t been successful in the past and that just seems like a solution to try and make everyone happy while probably hurting the team. So let’s toss that option.

But think about the rotation if Ibaka is a starter. Green could still absolutely see plenty of time at power forward, but could also spell Kevin Durant at small forward. There’s no reason Uncle Jeff couldn’t still play 30-35 minutes a game and depending on matchups, still see those occasional 42-minute nights. Plus, the Thunder bench would have two really stout weapons off it in Green and James Harden. Jeff Green could be a really killer sixth man.

Really, the scenario that has Ibaka starting makes all kinds of sense. But two things hold me back. 1) Are we completely sure Ibaka is ready for this. I know we’re fired up about his game Monday and really about how well he’s played this season, but again, the sample size is rather small. We don’t want to be making a change back the other way come New Year’s. And 2) Do we feel entirely comfortable trifling with a lineup that was consistent through last season and saw the team win 50 games? I think we already know Scott Brooks’ opinion on that.

People ask me a lot to pick the Thunder’s three most untouchable players and that answer is easy every time for me. Durant, Westbrook and… Ibaka. There’s no doubt. Ibaka is like a cross between The Birdman, Tyrus Thomas and Amar’e Stoudemire. There’s so much raw skill there that’s being develop right before our face. It’s not just about how he impacts a game with his blocked shots. But watch how guards have to float their runners just a little higher, how guys hesitate in the lane, how people score less at the rim with Ibaka. He’s a defensive force and he doesn’t even completely understand how to play defense. Ibaka is the type of talent that literally improves every second he’s on the floor.

The question you’ve got to ask is, “Will starting Ibaka make this team better? Will the Thunder win more games as a result?” If you think the answer to that is yes, it’s a no-brainer. If you’re not totally sure, I think you hold off and take a longer look at it. And that’s kind of where I sit. I’m not sure.

In the end, it’s all about wins and losses and what players make those things happen. But at this point, it feels too early to decide that. But that’s probably just me. Because if not now, when? Do you wait until Green is really stinking it up and then you crush him by removing him from the first five? Do you wait for a five-game losing streak and try and shake things up? Do you wait another month to just see what happens? Or do you do it now, taking Green’s job away while he’s hurt, but also while morale is high? Tough questions to answer.

So for me, I’m going to ride the fence just a little bit longer and hope someone else figures out the right answer.

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jack
jack 5pts

Why do you say the Thunder are 3-0 when Ibaka is starting? When this article was written, they were 3-1. They lost to Boston. I think you have to start Green. He is to valuable to lose this off-season, and benching him will only make him want to leave. He is too important to this team. For example, certain teams (like Boston) can be exploited with smaller, quicker power forwards. He can back up KD for 10-12 minutes a night(and if Kevin goes down a few games, fill in nicely at the starting 3) . Give a solid 20-30 minutes at the power forward(more if needed). The one thing the thunder needs is a little more depth. Having both Green and Ibaka in the front court gives us some depth. Green is worth keeping around, and that probably means starting him for the rest of the season.

Bryson
Bryson 5pts

I wish we would play Cole Aldrich more...We spent a lot to get him, and I've seen him play maybe 3 times? One of those times was against Boston, and man...he was outstanding! He's just such a massive guy, with a little bit more playing time to develop him, he could be 2X the player Nenad is!

felix
felix 5pts

The DON :

OKC Thunder :Greg Oden free agent 2011

The only thing worse than us getting KD and Portland getting Oden when they could’ve had KD would be us signing Oden after Portland gives up on him and him suddenly turning healthy and into a beast like everyone thought he would.
At that point all blazer fans should literally commit suicide.

No....the only worse thing would be the above scenerio for a former sonics fan, turned blazer fan because they're the next closest team. Honestly, watching the last couple of blazers vs. thunder games have been painful in so many ways. Not that i blame any of you guys. OKC clearly has great fans (and the city obviously deserves an NBA team) it...just makes me sad.

TaylorV
TaylorV 5pts

We should just bench thabo and move Durant to the 2 and put Jeff in his natural position at the 3 then we could start Ibaka

ThunderHorn
ThunderHorn 5pts

@ThunderHorn

If Ibaka strings together a few bad games in a row and Green is 100%(ankle and conditioning) is when you think about making a switch back.

ThunderHorn
ThunderHorn 5pts

Yes he should start.

His future on this team is at starting PF. He's playing well, the team is 3-0 with him in the starting lineup. Why mess with it? This allows you to do 2 things with Green: 1)bring him back slowly from his injury. 2)Allows you to get a look at what he can do as the 6th man.

dj
dj 5pts

The who starts at PF question is on longer relevant. Of course Ibaka should be the starter. The real question is can Scott Brooks improve as a coach?

He's got to learn to expand the rotation to give developmental minutes. The team needs a more physical force at center to be a legit contender. Krstic is not the answer. Aldrich & Mullens aren't going to get any better without the experience of playing in actual games.

He's also got improve the offense. Way too many 0 or 1 pass possessions. Way too much one on one basketball by Durant & Westbrook. He needs to make these guys understand any gunner can get 30, but great basketball players make their teammates better. Communicating this type of message to young players is always difficult & can lead to friction.

And he's got to get the guys to give a more consistent effort. In the NBA "young" is defined as "inconsistent". But to get the home court in the first round they'll need to learn to play smart & hard every night.

ThunderFanInMn
ThunderFanInMn 5pts

I"m looking forward to Dec, we should be able to put together a very nice record that month...

As long as we win the games we are supposed to win, and pick of a tough game here and there in Nov...we are still in good shape when the playoffpush starts to heat up.

And in Decemeber, we can really create some seperation...and learn if we know how to hold onto a lead:)

Mark!
Mark! 5pts

I'm not anymore. Kevin Love played himself into being untradeable. He's stuck in Minny a couple more years now.

justin
justin 5pts

@clarkem

You mean you're not?

clarkem
clarkem 5pts

The only problem with the minny game is some people around these parts might start foaming at the mouth at the possibility of having Kevin Love over Jeff Green.

clarkem
clarkem 5pts

@justin
That's huge. I wish we had at least a Denver game out of the way as well, but I will take a dominant division record so far through the season regardless of struggles. People seem to worry about close games but a W is a W no matter how it comes, and we've won 3 of our 4 biggest games. No complaints from me so far.

John-o
John-o 5pts

5. Minny – Whocares?

Rubio cures all

justin
justin 5pts

It's far more important that we are 3-1 within the division with four games against Utah / Portland out of the way.

DizzyDai
DizzyDai 5pts

NW Division

1. Utah
2. OKC - 0.5 Behind
3. Portland - 0.5 Behind
4. Denver - 1 Behind
5. Minny - Whocares?

Tonight we have Houston. Utah has the Nets. Denver and Portland play each other soon. Who is #1 at the end of this week?

bryan
bryan 5pts

Sammy :@holdmymartian

Honestly, the only games on that schedule that I see the thunder easily winning are Toronto, minny, and nj. We’re more than capable of dropping any of the others if we don’t bring our a-game, which isn’t something that’s happened very often. Not that I expect us to go 3-8 (I’d be furious), but just saying that it’s not too difficult to see us fumbling around .500 unless we start playing markedly better.

Kinda how I feel about that stretch. I don't see this team kicking it into gear until December, but who knows.

EvanZ
EvanZ 5pts

The question is not whether Ibaka should start.

The real question is why was he not starting already, and why is it just Jeff Green that you are worried about? Nenad Krstc is even worse.

Sammy
Sammy 5pts

@holdmymartian
Honestly, the only games on that schedule that I see the thunder easily winning are Toronto, minny, and nj. We're more than capable of dropping any of the others if we don't bring our a-game, which isn't something that's happened very often. Not that I expect us to go 3-8 (I'd be furious), but just saying that it's not too difficult to see us fumbling around .500 unless we start playing markedly better.

The DON
The DON 5pts

OKC Thunder :
Greg Oden free agent 2011

The only thing worse than us getting KD and Portland getting Oden when they could've had KD would be us signing Oden after Portland gives up on him and him suddenly turning healthy and into a beast like everyone thought he would.

At that point all blazer fans should literally commit suicide.

shiki=4 seasons
shiki=4 seasons 5pts

@jdstorm
He’s coaching middle school football.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AgtP14MZRS_Es2XvotAwT8G8vLYF?slug=mc-afterthebuzzer102910

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

@jdstorm
yeah, really id be surprised if presti wasnt at least looking to see who is available

Mike
Mike 5pts

I think that if you are going to do the pull, It has to be done now, or not until next season. Jeff has great value to this team, but if you wait until he struggles, than put him on the second unit than that will be a tough pill for him to swallow. If they can do it so that it is not about Jeff's performance, but rather the second Unit's than he can keep his pride. Also, if it suits him, it could put him in a better place with the team long-term.

jdstorm
jdstorm 5pts

@f5alcon
I wonder what mike brown is doing now. he was a great defensive guy, and we could use another assistant coach, since we just upgraded someone to replace adams

Ray
Ray 5pts

Very Good Article! Just my two cents! In life, when I am learning something new or trying something new, I go through a period of trial and error. Royce you made a key point in the article. Ibaka has started in three games and the Thunder won all three. I am not saying that we would win every game that Ibaka starts but 100% right now is good. I would keep starting him and give him a period of trial and error to find out the real winnig percentage with him starting. I have heard some people in life say that "if you keep doing something over and over again expecting a different result is insanity." I understand want what they mean. If it is something that gives you a negative result then you can say that it is insanity. But if what you are doing is giving you a positive result, then it would be insane not to keep doing it. Ibaka really needs to keep starting. He has earned it. I am a true believer that people should get what they have earned.

holdmymartian
holdmymartian 5pts

*eleven games(so that should be 7-4 minimum and 9-2 would be great.)

holdmymartian
holdmymartian 5pts

We have a pretty favorable schedule the next ten games. 6-4 should be minimum. 8-2 would be great.@New
Houston-Should win.
@Boston-Probably should lose.
@Milwaukee-Winnable.
Minnesota-Should win.
Dallas-Winnable if we show up.
@Indiana-Should win.
@Houston-Should win.
NOLA-Winnable if we show up.
Jersey-Should win
@Toronto-Should win
Golden State-Winnable if we show up.

andrew
andrew 5pts

justin :
Chauncey Billups has fallen off a cliff.

The worst part of this is that he will never adjust his game to compensate for his lesser abilities. Prime example: 2010 FIBA championships.

OKC Thunder
OKC Thunder 5pts

Greg Oden free agent 2011

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

@andrew
yeah but there was no way to keep adams he wanted back in chicago, maybe if the bulls were better last year so del negro was still coach

justin
justin 5pts

Chauncey Billups has fallen off a cliff.

andrew
andrew 5pts

watching the Bulls play lockdown D greatly saddens me.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

@andrew
id really like us to help facilitate the trade of melo to the knicks, maybe we can end up with nene

OKC Thunder
OKC Thunder 5pts

Lebron said they would win every game. What a ego maniac

Cb
Cb 5pts

I'm late on this one but the answer is yes.

justin
justin 5pts

@andrew

Just like LeBron James.

andrew
andrew 5pts

I have seen several people write this, and I agree with it. If Amare and Bosh switched places both teams would be better off.

andrew
andrew 5pts

justin :
At least we’re not the Knicks. What a horrible team.

melo cures all! or something...

justin
justin 5pts

At least we're not the Knicks. What a horrible team.

justin
justin 5pts

@dream catcher

It does but KD did that well last season. I think he's tired from the summer and all the minutes he played. Also, our whole team has been a problem with that regard, not just KD. KD was a very strong positive on team defense last year.

This is part of becoming a leader for him. He's only 22.

OKC Thunder
OKC Thunder 5pts

Thabo's defense has decline and he is not much of a offense threat. Not a starter

dream catcher
dream catcher 5pts

justin :@dream
catcher
You don’t put up seasons like he did last year without putting in the effort. C’mon, man.

he is so talented and long that he can find success without the consistent effort. I dunno but whenever I watch him this season he is coasting on defense too much, and being a ball stopper on offense.

I know he isn't Westbrook and never will be in terms of hustle but he doesn't seem to fight threw screens well like you posted above and that has a lot to do with effort.

justin
justin 5pts

@dream catcher

You don't put up seasons like he did last year without putting in the effort. C'mon, man.

Sammy
Sammy 5pts

@dream catcher
I'm willing to be patient wrt Durant's shooting numbers. Dude was still sitting at <30%3p after November last year. What does concern me is the number of minutes he's been racking up. Brooks has been playing him a ton.

dream catcher
dream catcher 5pts

justin :@dream
catcher
LOL of all the players on this team to have an axe to grind about, why KD? He still scores better than anyone on our team even when he’s slumping.

I just feel like he doesn't give the effort that I would like in the best player on the team. He coasts out there too much IMO. I still feel like he is a good player, just not top3 etc that so many others think.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

we have more free throw makes per game than all but 2 teams have attempts per game

justin
justin 5pts

@dream catcher

LOL of all the players on this team to have an axe to grind about, why KD? He still scores better than anyone on our team even when he's slumping.

dream catcher
dream catcher 5pts

justin :@James

If I could show you these clips of Durant jogging through screens chasing shooters, you wouldn’t want Kevin Durant near the SG position.

agreed. Durant has been really poor this year. His scoring has been pretty good when you combine his free-throw shooting, but what else has he done even above average?

justin
justin 5pts

AC :Any guesses on how much a season subscription will cost? I can’t even put a number on how much I’d be willing to pay for it.

I think it was $79.99 early in the year and the playoff package was $29.99 (if you signed up late in the year you got access to everything + the playoffs). It's probably going to be more this year but I doubt it'll be more than $100 for the season, depending on when it gets online.

James
James 5pts

KD is going to have to play better defense if we're going to be successful whether he's playing the 2 or the 3. He played solid d for the most part last night. Especially down the stretch. Again though, if he's not guarding it doesn't matter what he's playing. It's going to lead to layups or open 3's. You have to take for granted that he's going to play hard. He is the cornerstone. He wants to be a complete player. You have to set the team up like he will be selling out.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

@AC
yeah non game days is much better for you, cause the game thread pushes yours down.

Trackbacks

  1. Quick Hitters | NBA Ball Hog: A View of the NBA From Outside the USA says:
    November 16, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    [...] Serge Ibaka vs Jeff Green debate has begun.  For a team that was lauded during the off-season as a grounded, cohesive [...]

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  5. How can you get your iPad apps back after restoring it? | iPader Hub says:
    November 17, 2010 at 6:44 am

    [...] It’s officially time to ask the question: Should Serge Ibaka start? | Daily Thunder.com [...]

  6. 11/17 Daily Links « OKC ThunderDome says:
    November 17, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    [...] Royce Young takes an appropriate look as to whether Serge Ibaka has earned the starting spot over the injury-recovering Jeff Green. [...]

  7. A Congolese and a Hoya Enter the Octagon… « OKC ThunderDome says:
    November 17, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    [...] It’s Officially Time to Ask the Question [...]

  8. dustbury.com » Rockets fizzle says:
    November 17, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    [...] Ibaka, still starting in place of the injured Jeff Green, wangled 11 points and eight boards, and if Ibaka were bucking for Green’s slot at the four, he’s making a pretty good case for h…. The Thunder hit exactly half their shots and went 5-12 from beyond the arc. Telltale stat: OKC [...]

  9. Outside The NBA » Blog Archive » LeBlog James, featuring an All-OTN Team update says:
    December 1, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    [...] season. This is an example of why Young called the idea of Serge starting at 5 “nonsense” in this comprehensive look at the “should he start?” question. For the record, I’m for him taking Jeff Green’s spot at the 4, but I’m not completely ready [...]

  10. The return of Thunder defense | Daily Thunder.com says:
    March 28, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    [...] those first 56 games. Just inserting Ibaka has had an incredibly positive impact. I’ll admit, I was hesitant about it despite seeing the obvious benefit, but it’s impossible to deny how much better OKC is just with Ibaka starting and getting 30 [...]

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