I joined the always excellent Ryen Russillo on the NBA Today podcast today (today!) to talk a little about the Kendrick Perkins trade, plus the Laker game from Sunday. So have a listen to that if you feel like it.
(Also, speaking of podcasts, a small note for fun: Bill Simmons broke down the Perkins-Green trade beautifully on the B.S. Report recently and in the meantime, gave Daily Thunder a nice little shoutout. So listen to that too if you want.)
Here’s where I have to make a point or two more about this Jeff Green trade before I lose my crap over it.
One thing I feel the need to say: For all of you already freaking out about this trade, just quit. I’ve been getting flooded with emails and tweets from concerned fans all worried about this trade screwing up the Thunder. People are worried about the offense. Oh no, how are we going to replace Jeff Green!?! People, it was Jeff Green. You know, the inconsistent scorer that averaged 15 points a game, shot barely 40 percent and took four 3s a game while only hitting about a quarter of them. Remember that guy?
Don’t get me wrong, I love Uncle Jeff and will always be a fan of his but let’s not act like the Thunder gave away Jerry West here. Yes, the offense has struggled a bit the past two games. But look who the Thunder was playing! The Magic and Lakers are two of the best defensive teams in the league. I’m not sure OKC would’ve fared any better offensively WITH Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic.
Can we at least let Kendrick Perkins play one game before we all lose our minds? Can we just do that? I can’t take listening to people call into the radio complaining about this deal. If the Thunder had won these last two games — both without Perkins, mind you — nobody would be worried. It’s post-trade-traumatic-anxiety disorder here.
What we all have to realize is that Jeff Green just wasn’t going to be part of the Thunder’s future. The writing was on the wall. Most of us — including myself, big time — missed it. When Green wasn’t extended over the summer we should’ve seen something like this coming. I kept thinking the season would play out, Presti would have a full evaluation of Green and then let the market determine if he was worth extending or not. But almost like the Carmelo Anthony situation, Presti didn’t want to let Green walk for nothing. So he basically rented Kendrick Perkins for two months, for free. Once the summer hits, Perkins will be the primary target for OKC to ink long-term.
It’s like it makes so much sense that some people are missing it.
The Thunder will certainly have to adjust offensively. Green did add a degree to the offense, and maybe even moreso, Krstic. Gone is that pick-and-pop option for Westbrook. But against teams not named the Magic and Lakers that don’t have Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard, Westbrook’s driving lanes will re-open and Durant will get free a bit better. Plus, here’s the bonus: The Thunder will have Kendrick Freaking Perkins to defend those guys!
Some of this is relying on James Harden to elevate his game, as well as Serge Ibaka. Presti is banking on those things happening. And he has good reason to. Harden has been quietly excellent the past month and Ibaka’s improvement since last season has been staggering. So just like always, give this thing a little time. Yes, the Thunder’s 0-2 since the trade.
But can we at least get let the new players play before we all call this a mistake?
See I'm not so much saying, Green was perfect in the position he was playing. I'm not saying the it was a bad business decision or a bad trade. What I am saying is Jeff Green is a fine basketball player and someone on this site should be an advocate for that point.
justin :@sbliss
The first 44 minutes have a lot more to do with the outcome of the game than the last 4 minutes.
Jeff Green did not fit on this team. Who cares about how he can score inside four minutes, that is a complete non-issue compared to his defensive issues and his lack of productivity for the other 44 minutes of a basketball game. You can find shooters on the scrap heap who can knock down a shot in crunch time if you need it, look how Eddie House continues to find work.
The problem with some fans is their constant romanticizing of Green and what he ‘contributed’. He is a good player who has to find the correct role, but that role was clearly not available to him on the Thunder.
This team needs another clutch scorer. If Harden can become that player, that would be great. He isn't there now, but he is improving in confidence. I give him a chance, but not an absolute certainty.
I was just repeating what someone on the podcast attached to this comment section said. The quote was something similar to "Forget the statistics, I can tell who is a player by what they do in the last four minutes." I completely agree, forget all the mumbo jumbo, Jeff Green was a player. Obviously Kevin Durant thought so. Obvioulsy, the Boston Celtics thought so. They traded a starting center for him, (and don't give me the contract this and that...Perkins wanted to play in Boston. They would have worked something out).
Jeff Green's place on this team was problematic, but maybe that place was the same one he now fills on a proven championship team that made the move to win an 18th championship
@DJ R7
In all likelihood, either trade or salary cap space, Love would cost us Ibaka.
@sbliss
The first 44 minutes have a lot more to do with the outcome of the game than the last 4 minutes.
Jeff Green did not fit on this team. Who cares about how he can score inside four minutes, that is a complete non-issue compared to his defensive issues and his lack of productivity for the other 44 minutes of a basketball game. You can find shooters on the scrap heap who can knock down a shot in crunch time if you need it, look how Eddie House continues to find work.
The problem with some fans is their constant romanticizing of Green and what he 'contributed'. He is a good player who has to find the correct role, but that role was clearly not available to him on the Thunder.
man if love came to OKC, and we had Russ/Harden/Durant/Love/Perkins, with Maynor, Cook, Ibaka, Aldrich(more devoloped), Collison, Nazr, and another 3 point shooter. I will create a religion called Thunder Basketball, and give up everything else in life, and just worship the team!!
This site has So much nonsense on Green as a player and so much truth on his contract numbers.
Somewhere on the podcast there is mention that the true measure of a scorer is his ability to score inside of 4 minutes left. Green had what it took to score in that time frame, IMO Harden has yet to prove that ability.
Jeff Green was a very good basketball player. James Harden is beginning to look like he has a chance, but the true measure will be his willingness and ability to score inside of 4 minutes. If he can, then Jeff Green was the right guy to trade.
Krstic and Green combine for 16 pts. in 27 mins. as Boston wins in Utah...hope we don't miss the points...seems like we did the last 2 games without them....
needless to say, I'm a little worried about the trade...
BTW our offense worked fine in the Laker game when we had centers in the game setting screens to free Durant from Artest. We can score enough points that way, and with the three point shooting we've displayed lately. Especially if they D up like they did yesterday.
Even if Green was better for the offense he was miserable for the defense and we weren't winning anything with him at PF. Presti knew that. All this talk about the offense is academic, IMO.
We need someone more like Reggie Williams.
@ThunderHorn
No to Brewer for me. For his career (and this year off the bench), he's been a poor shooter. Thabo can take up the backup SF minutes and defend better than Brewer. Unless we can pick up a shooter, I don't see the point in picking someone up.
Could Corey Brewer be coming to OKC? Near buyout agreement w/ NYK and OKC one of 4 teams most interested.
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=6168236
@TaoMaas
KD is one of the highest minute players in the league, he wasn't sitting for Jeff or anyone. The only thing this team needs right now are shooters. We need someone like Azubuike backing up Harden and raining threes when teams pack the lane. We need someone behind Russ who has both confidence and ability from behind the three point line. We've gone from a bad shooting team with no inside defense to a bad shooting team with strong inside defense. Those two things have no real bearing on the other, especially when your stretch 4 was basically left open on the perimeter more often than not.
This was a good move.
@TaoMaas
I agree that Jeff Green was playing out of position. However, he was rarely going to get to play his natural position because we're kinda set there. I wouldn't want to relegate Jeff to 2nd team SF, I'd rather he have a chance to do well somewhere else. Backup SF is not a difficult position to fill, starting center is. I like the Mohammed trade, but that's not a good enough solution. Perkins is potentially a legitimate solution to our center problem, and I think that's very much worth trading somebody who even you view ideally as a backup SF.
On other point I'd like to make is that I sometimes feel like KD needs more rest during games. We all know that he NEVER wants to come out of a game, but he might have been more willing to sit if he knew it meant Uncle Jeff was going to get his minutes. I think KD might do for his friend what he wasn't so crazy about doing for his coach, ya know?
@nick
I think what most folks on here think...that Jeff Green was playing out of position. I think that made it hard to really evaluate him. I also think that the Thunder had workable options at center if we could have just fixed our PF problem. Ideally, I would have preferred to see the Thunder try and sign a more physical PF (like Kevin Love when he becomes available), move Green to 2nd team SF, then upgrade our center in a manner more like the move we made for Mohammed. But, could we have gotten a decent PF without it hurting like it did to give up Green? I mean, a difference maker? Probably not. I agree with some of the earlier comments that this trade was partly about physical abilities, but more about contracts and opportunity.
@nick
good point nick.
And to Keith's point about our offense, I think we were very successful offensively against teams that weren't good defensively. There are very few teams that can do anything with KD, and we were quite good against teams that couldn't stop him. Against high quality teams that could do something with KD (ie, Miami, the Lakers), our offense struggled even before the trade. So while our offense was highly ranked prior to the trade, I think the ranking was a bit misleading in terms of how it would fare against the elite teams in the playoffs.
TaoMaas :@DavyTheWise
But 2 out of the 3 points were: “Jeff Green is not a good scorer” and “Jeff Green is not a good 3 point shooter”. Are you saying some teams need guys that can’t shoot and can’t defend? lol
My opinion is that Green was grossly misused. Its not that he isn't a scorer, its just that he wasn't efficient on this team because he had KD staring at his natural position. This made him play PF (as we are all aware) where he was just overmatched on offense and defense for most games. On top of that, he was played about 15min too many IMO, further depleting his efficiency. I'm saying that he is what boston needed/wanted and he didn't have the same value on the thunder as he may as a celtic. The same can be said of Perkins from the Celtics side of things.
On top of this, lets not forget about the financial side of this business. Because of greens lower value to us than his percieved value to other teams, it is more than likely that he would have gotten overpaid (from our POV) this summer and we wouldn't have gotten anything for him. A GMs job involves much more than just putting players on the court, he has to manage the contracts, PR, coaching staff, office staff, schedules, etc. etc. etc... All of those factors are important as well.
TaoMaas :@DavyTheWise
But 2 out of the 3 points were: “Jeff Green is not a good scorer” and “Jeff Green is not a good 3 point shooter”. Are you saying some teams need guys that can’t shoot and can’t defend? lol
Jeff may not be efficient, but he's an offensive option, and Perkins isn't. Some is better than none any day. Besides, this is as a backup to Paul Pierce. Jeff will be used for his perimeter defense as much as his offensive game.
No one is saying that they traded a defensive center for a spot up shooter. But Jeff is a better offensive option than Perkins. Especially as a backup.
@TaoMaas
I think Danny Ainge made a mistake to be honest with you. I'm sure Danny Ainge has more experience in basketball than I do, but that doesn't mean I think he's infallible. I'm not going to believe that a move is a good one just because Danny Ainge made it. Danny Ainge definitely watches less Thunder basketball than I do, and I believe he overvalued Green because of his national reputation. Beyond that, they didn't think they were going to be able to resign Perkins in the offseason and wanted to get something for them, and they had more faith than I do that the O'Neals will be healthy in the postseason.
Anyway, I asked what you thought. Telling me what Danny Ainge thinks is a different question.
TaoMaas :@nick
If you agree with what you posted, then why did Boston think Jeff and Nenad were worth Nate and Perk? Do you think Danny Ainge doesn’t know basketball?
Remember though, this was as much about a contract situation as it was about basketball X's and O's.
Perk and Rondo together is a tough sell on an offense because they are both non factors. Krstic and Green can score the ball from several spots on the floor and help the offense. Not drastically, but they do help. Maybe not efficiently, but they are a minimal threat. Perk is only a threat off of an offensive rebound and putback.
We're talking minor adjustments here, nothing major.
Perk/Thabo on the floor together will give us the same problems as Perk/Rondo gave the celtics. We'll just have to work around it. But as for us, we'll probably see Perk in at crunchtime over Thabo, where in Boston there is no way they'd go with Perk over Rondo in crunchtime.
Great Post Jax, as always. I especially like the last paragraph.
"I don’t think you’ll see any more complexity added to our offense by the staff. I think you might see it once guys like Russ start to use his teammates as weapons rather than decoys, but that is more organic than coached. Maybe I’m wrong and we do install some more complex motion schemes in the half court, but I doubt we see it for a handful of seasons."
@DavyTheWise
But 2 out of the 3 points were: "Jeff Green is not a good scorer" and "Jeff Green is not a good 3 point shooter". Are you saying some teams need guys that can't shoot and can't defend? lol
TaoMaas :@nick
If you agree with what you posted, then why did Boston think Jeff and Nenad were worth Nate and Perk? Do you think Danny Ainge doesn’t know basketball?
Different teams need different things. Simply.
@John
I think he meant every team in the league knows to try and stop KD.
@gr8ball83
Ha! It brings out the beast in him!
Keith :
Can I just ask. When was the last time anyone here was actually confident in our offense? Haven’t we been playing a 2-man game all year, and looking bad if either one is off? Haven’t we seen terrible late-game execution for years now? Haven’t we established that this team doesn’t have enough shooters or movement on offense?
We didn’t create a new problem with this trade. Green was not a good offensive player, and Krstic had a very small role. The only problem we’ve created with this trade is that Brooks needs to step up his game.
I've come full circle on this. I posted a very long winded reason why a couple weeks back, but I understand where you are coming from.
Yes, the offense we had 3 weeks ago was putting up scores that rank us highly compared to the other teams. But I know that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about a system, and our system is elementary. So, here's my take on our system and where I'm at with it given our new personnel.
We will still be a great free throw shooting team, even with Perk, simply because of his volume. It's a safe bet that we'll still be #1 and well above 80%. That's our best offense.
We will still be a good transition team. Whatever losing Jeff means to our transition game, I bet we gain it back with more rebounding and outlet passes.
Which leaves us with our halfcourt offense, which is just very basic ball movement and a drive and kick priority (and some iso, of course).
You clear a lane two ways: 1) Spacing and 2) Kicking. Perk and Ibaka will clog the lane a bit more than Nenad and Green, so Russ will probably have to learn to open the lane for himself by kicking to shooters. He should find that kicking to James in the corner is preferable than kicking to Green. The same is true of Cook instead of Thabo, since Cook is getting more minutes lately.
I think that is necessary anyway, since we need to be taking more 3 pointers. We're last in the league there, and that alone stacks the deck against us. Harden and Cook have been hitting their 3's, and it doesn't matter if KD is having a poor 3 point year, he'll still be guarded and will still make his fair share.
When we aren't driving and kicking, we're running the PnR or PnP (or as I like to call it, the high ball screen, since Russ rarely uses the other options). Ibaka lacks as a screen setter on that play still, so that has to improve. But we didn't use Green in that role much anyway. Krstic was the guy we used in that role and he didn't play much. It will be interesting to see how that play works with us now, because we had gotten to where we ran it rather well.
We run several screens and pin downs, and those should improve actually, especially if we see Nick and Perk play together. That is two of the best screen setters you'll find in the league. I'd like to see Harden use them more than he does, but KD should find that combo appealing.
I think it's a bit premature to put Ibaka into a scoring role, but he'll be baptized by fire now, so he'd better learn quickly. He's got that sweet midrange jumper, but the guy is lost on ball movement. I imagine that until he figures that out, our other post players will just know to crash the boards if Ibaka happens to get his hands on a pass 17ft from the basket, since he's going to shoot it because he doesn't know what else to do with it. He's not a playmaker by any means.
So, in short, I see a dip in production once the guys are comfortable with each other, but not as bad as people are predicting on this board.
I don't think you'll see any more complexity added to our offense by the staff. I think you might see it once guys like Russ start to use his teammates as weapons rather than decoys, but that is more organic than coached. Maybe I'm wrong and we do install some more complex motion schemes in the half court, but I doubt we see it for a handful of seasons.
@nick
If you agree with what you posted, then why did Boston think Jeff and Nenad were worth Nate and Perk? Do you think Danny Ainge doesn't know basketball?
Keith :@innocent bystanderSo you didn’t think we were predictable, that if it came down to one position we wouldn’t miss, or that we were totally reliant on getting to the line despite not having any shooters? Good for you I guess. Our offense revolved entirely around two players, one whose shooting has gotten worse and worse throughout the season (Russ’s jumpers) and one that every team in the league knows to stop.@GregHe
We scored 56 points in the first half against LA – why doesn’t that get just as much attention as the 31 in the second half? We can score when we are hitting, but we are still a jump shooting team without a lot of good jump shooters.
doesn’t have leverage. He’s not a FA for another year, and is a RFA at best. Don’t get me wrong, he alongside Perkins gives you the offense-defense combo that could just kill people, but it doesn’t have much impact right now.
Every team in the league knows how to stop KD? He leads the league in scoring.
@gr8ball83
lol, though the new practice facility should be done by then
@RWisMyFavThunder
And he loves the smell of dog food when he's practicing. Just a rumor I heard
Of course, he wants to come here. RW is his best friend, and he hung out with him and KD at the All-Star break
@nick
Good post, I want to see what it brings...
@Keith
Lakers only scored 39 in the second half, I'm guessing their fans aren't freaking out about their offense.
@innocent bystander
So you didn't think we were predictable, that if it came down to one position we wouldn't miss, or that we were totally reliant on getting to the line despite not having any shooters? Good for you I guess. Our offense revolved entirely around two players, one whose shooting has gotten worse and worse throughout the season (Russ's jumpers) and one that every team in the league knows to stop.
We scored 56 points in the first half against LA - why doesn't that get just as much attention as the 31 in the second half? We can score when we are hitting, but we are still a jump shooting team without a lot of good jump shooters.
@Greg
He doesn't have leverage. He's not a FA for another year, and is a RFA at best. Don't get me wrong, he alongside Perkins gives you the offense-defense combo that could just kill people, but it doesn't have much impact right now.
YES!!!
For the people lamenting the trade, I have a few questions. I'm curious where you stand on some things. I believe the following things are facts, and I'm wondering if you disagree.
1. Jeff Green is not a good scorer. He played a lot of minutes and took plenty of shots, and thus scored some points, but he did so inefficiently. Thus, he was not a good scorer.
2. Jeff Green is not a good 3 point shooter. He shoots 30% from 3 on the season. Furthermore, teams don't respect his shooting because he is not a good shooter. I don't understand the argument that the fact that Jeff is willing to shoot 3s made defense respect his shot - I believe they welcomed Jeff Green 3 point shots, since he doesn't shoot them well.
3. Nenad Krstic did not play a significant role in our offense. He would often hit a few shots on the PnP early in the first or third quarter. Beyond that, he wasn't a major part of our offense. Furthermore, teams didn't gameplan around Krstic. He generally hit shots because other bigs didn't bother to guard him.
If you agree with those statements, I don't understand how you can complain about the trade. If you don't agree with those statement, I'm interested to hear your justifications against them.
hello
hello
darn it! I didn't do something right
@Greg
Russ, KD, Harden, Love, Perk
I just came
[strong]hello[/strong]
[i]hello[/i]
Greg :
Think people are missing the key point here: Kevin Love reportedly wants to complete the dream team and take his talents to OKC.
If that happened i would crap myself.
You have to be able to spread the court when you leading scorers are Guards/small forward
I like an all dunker lineup with those guys.
I think brooks needs some creativity...
@Daniel
Can't leave Harden off that list
Think people are missing the key point here: Kevin Love reportedly wants to complete the dream team and take his talents to OKC.
Daniel :
Underrated bonus of the trade: with Westbrook, Ibaka, and now Robinson, we would win a dunkoff against any team.
Not to mention perkins and Harden as sidekicks!
Underrated bonus of the trade: with Westbrook, Ibaka, and now Robinson, we would win a dunkoff against any team.
@Keith
"When was the last time anyone here was actually confident in our offense?"
I was. We were the #5 offense and chugging along nicely. We had all kinds of problems, but scoring enough points wasn't one of them.