The best moment from All-Star Weekend: A meeting of the beards

@innocent bystander
By Miami you mean Orlando I believe. And they only have so many moves they can do by being so far over the tax line. Further it hasn't really HURT them so a trade that doesn't make you worse isn't a dumb move in my opinion.

And as far as the Knicks organization how can you not look at what they have compared to when they took over right at Isiah Thomas and say they aren't better? The fact that they have 2 superstars and are going to the playoffs is a HUGE improvement from where they were.

Please?

Someone photoshop Isiah Thomas' face onto Grima Wormtongue's body.

@prye05
"I wouldn’t necessarily say that organizations don’t really know what they are doing"

I would.

What did Miami get for their major re-shuffling this year? Not much. Except Turkoglu -- who they had gotten rid of in an earlier shuffle!

I don't think the Knicks organization looks too brilliant right now. But they got Melo. Which is all that matters, I guess. Good luck to them.

Right now, the Thunder looks like an island of calmness and sanity in the swirling turbulent sea of the Northwest conference. I mean, we have our problems, but goodness.. I'll take them over what's ailing the rest of them.

innocent bystander :
whoa, what a comic game of musical chairs…
well, the Melo deal is done (thank goodness)… not that more rounds of furious shuffling aren’t about to occur
I swear there must be only about 5 or 6 organizations in the NBA who really know what they are doing (Spurs, Thunder, Lakers, Celtics,..) The rest of them (and their GMs) just seem to be making it up as they go along.

I wouldn't necessarily say that organizations don't really know what they are doing. Some teams are just now in the process of rebuilding (Cle, Tor, Wash, Indy, NJ) so it's hard to say whether or not they know what they are doing until you see the end result. Just like you can't really say the Thunder have done a good job until you see what really happens. Further you can't really say a team like Utah, Orlando, Dallas, Chicago don't know what they are doing just because they haven't won a title... their teams are in a position to consistently win sometimes they just don't get the luck of the Irish. But I do agree some organizations screw things up, however, there is some unfortunate situations sometimes. Like Portland and Roy and Oden both being hurt... hard to be good when 2 of your top players are hurt. Granted you could say they could have saw that coming on draft day... but to be fair if they avoid Oden and draft Durant then the Thunder are drafting Oden and where would this organization be then?

What I can say is that I'm glad I'm not a fan of one of the (many) teams who regularly engage in this musical chairs game with the roster. How much fun is it for a fan to show up for games each year saying "so who am I rooting for this year?". Must be a case of "oh, that guy has on a shirt with my team's colors, so I guess that's who I root for".

Yeesh. I prefer a bit more consistency. And some kind of identity. Sure, some players around the edges always come and go. But when large swaths of the core of your team shuffle in and out? Yuk.

@andrew
They were seeking an extension with Melo too... that doesn't mean he'll sign it. Until he signs the extension technically you have no need to be worried, and even if he does it doesn't necessarily hurt the Thunder other than it's one guy that potentially could have helped fill a spot that other people could also fill. However, if he signs the extension he could actually keep them decent but not good or bad which would be a good thing for the Thunder as they wouldn't really be a threat to worry about.

Nuggets seeking extension with Nene. Fml.
http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/25085/sources-nuggets-seek-nene-extension

@justin
We could offer Cole, Clippers pick, our couple of picks, 3M$ (to pay of somebody to take Mo Pete contract, so some cap relief for Denver), but I agree it isn't enough without one big name.
We couldn't keep both Nene and Green long term, so Green is logical choice to go. Denver doesn't need him (or maybe does, if Galinari is going to be traded), but he is valuable asset to somebody.

However, Denver's goals will be (order below doesn't matter):
1. Get rid of Al Harrington
2. Get salary cap relief for expiring contracts (K.Martin, J.R.Smith)
3. Young players on rookie scale
4. Draft picks
5. Not trading Nene to the same conference and especially division

But, play-off teams or contenders are the only one that need Nene, and there aren't too many of them on East with hole on center position and enough assets (maybe Philadelphia if they want to include Turner in trade, and they probably don't). However on West there are Portland, Houston, OKC, all with holes on center position and all with lot of assets. So they will probably ignore reason number 5 and try to start bidding war between previously mentioned teams.

And if Denver is in rebuilding mode now (and they surely must be) it can only be good for the Thunder. Rebuilding is lengthy and hard. Denver is likely going down the tubes over the next few seasons.

Of course, it's still hard to say, because, again, Denver can't possibly be finished making moves. We don't know yet what the heck the team will end up with (suspect that Denver's FO doesn't know either).

now you could say that Denver was only getting as good as they could get for an inevitable loss of Melo -- which is true, and, considering that, they did pretty good.

but... is Denver rebuilding or not? Well, they surely have to be now. Before this trade they had:

** a bunch of solid, mid-level guys, one superstar, no leader (Melo was no leader)

and after this trade they have

** even more solid, mid-level guys, no superstar, no leader

(and I didn't even mention the ailing coach)

so far from this being the end for Denver's moves, it can only be the beginning. In which case it's impossible to guess how they'll shape up since we don't even know for sure what the team will look like after all the dust settles...

whoa, what a comic game of musical chairs...

well, the Melo deal is done (thank goodness)... not that more rounds of furious shuffling aren't about to occur

I swear there must be only about 5 or 6 organizations in the NBA who really know what they are doing (Spurs, Thunder, Lakers, Celtics,..) The rest of them (and their GMs) just seem to be making it up as they go along.

At any rate, right now show me who is set up perfectly to contend in the West in 3-4 years.. Us and who else? Maybe the Lakers if they get Howard?

NO team is set up to win the West better than us in about two years. Feel good fact.

@Grolgar
Denver really didn't have a choice sure they could have hoped he wouldn't walk away from the money but comparatively his contract isn't going to go down that drastically from what he'll get paid now compared to what he'll get paid as a max contract in the new CBA it's not like he's really losing 65 mil dollars. Chances are the most he'd lose is probably in the 15 mil dollar range or (5 mil a year) which while a significant loss he'd be playing for an organization he wants to play for with players he wants to play with as opposed to be stuck on some bad team for more years.

And if the "star" power is such a big factor than not having a star will make them much worse than "barely missing the playoffs"... besides which missing the playoffs puts you in the lottery which there have been multiple times teams outside of the top 3 picks have gotten the top pick just as the Bulls about winning D-Rose. Further, they aren't necessarily done yet and could really blow things up still this week so they might be in that full rebuild mode you were talking about. Besides which what's exactly the point of rebuilding if it isn't to get to the point of contention so having a young core that puts you right on the brink makes it so that future assets can be used to either make you a contender or unnecessary pieces be let go.

Further as to your saying my Galo to Dirk is absurd... look at their first few years in the league and tell me exactly what it is that is absurd. Dirk averaged 17pt, 6 rebs, and hit about 1.5 3s per game in his first full season... last year in his first full season Galo averaged 2 3s, 15 pt, and 4.5 reb per game so it's not as far off as you might think. Not to mention the difference from needing to defer because you have other "stars" on your team vs having an offense run through you is a big difference.

Grolgar :@prye05

I disagree with the premise that Denver either had to do this trade or nothing. They could have kept Melo and waited for the new CBA. There is a chance that the new CBA would have made staying in Denver so much better financially that he would have relented and they could rebuild around him. That’s worth the risk considering they have a team that will be just good enough to barely miss the playoffs every year. That’s the worst place you can be in the NBA – in the middle. It’s better to be good or rebuilding. You can get stuck in the middle for years.

Right now they were stuck as a perennially 4-7 seed with a star who had alienated the fanbase. It is still easy to completely blow up and just trade your players for draft picks (see Seattle in 07).

Implying that they should have held on to Melo on the very slight chance that he would resign or that it would make blowing up the team easier seems a little ridiculous to me. If there is a 95% chance he is leaving anyways I would gladly take assets like Felton, Gallo, and Chandler in return for him rather than letting him leave under the impression that it would make rebuilding easier.

@justin@andrew

Agreed. Ibaka is far better than the Ekpe Udoh/Jordan Hill + picks offers they'll surely receive, but he's too much and everything else is too little.

@Grolgar

That's true. Aldridge has made a leap this year. Portland has scary-good culture, just a couple moves/strokes of deserved luck away from contending. Denver is young and exciting but leaderless (mostly because of losing Billups).

prye05 :@DJ R7Unless Nene is traded within the conference to a team like Houston…@justinStar
players are important… but who is to say that increasing the roles of Lawson, Chandler, JR Smith, Gallinari, Mozgov, Nene, or Afflalo doesn’t make one of them into a “star”? All of them have been asked to be role players to this point, who says Lawson isn’t the next CP3, or Chandler or Smith becoming huge scorers, maybe Gallinari is the next Dirk, who knows what Mozgov has, maybe Nene can actually become that All-star granted he’d probably opt out and get a big pay check if he blows up the rest of the way… and Afflalo has done a lot more this year maybe moving him up from the 3rd or 4th option to the 1st or 2nd option is something he can handle??? who knows… but they’re much better off than a lot of other teams lol at least they got something for their star

None of those people are stars because they do not have the talent. Did you just compare Galo to Dirk? This shows how absurd your arguemnt is... I'm sorry, but you're being ridiculous.

@prye05

I disagree with the premise that Denver either had to do this trade or nothing. They could have kept Melo and waited for the new CBA. There is a chance that the new CBA would have made staying in Denver so much better financially that he would have relented and they could rebuild around him. That's worth the risk considering they have a team that will be just good enough to barely miss the playoffs every year. That's the worst place you can be in the NBA - in the middle. It's better to be good or rebuilding. You can get stuck in the middle for years.

I would not trade Ibaka for Nene, or even Gasol. Then we are still left needing another quality big man.

Let's be honest, when is the last time a promising young PF/C prospect like Ibaka got traded while still on their rookie deal? It just doesn't happen..

@DJ R7
Unless Nene is traded within the conference to a team like Houston...

@justin
Star players are important... but who is to say that increasing the roles of Lawson, Chandler, JR Smith, Gallinari, Mozgov, Nene, or Afflalo doesn't make one of them into a "star"? All of them have been asked to be role players to this point, who says Lawson isn't the next CP3, or Chandler or Smith becoming huge scorers, maybe Gallinari is the next Dirk, who knows what Mozgov has, maybe Nene can actually become that All-star granted he'd probably opt out and get a big pay check if he blows up the rest of the way... and Afflalo has done a lot more this year maybe moving him up from the 3rd or 4th option to the 1st or 2nd option is something he can handle??? who knows... but they're much better off than a lot of other teams lol at least they got something for their star

@andrew

Yes. Portland's roster is better than Denver's for one reason. They have a star - LaMarcus Aldridge. He is all star quality. Far better than any player on Denver. Portland is a much better team. Over the course of a season I would estimate 15 games better minimum.

I just don't see what we can offer Denver aside from Serge Ibaka. They probably would have no interest in Jeff Green considering they just got Chandler and Gallinari. Cole Aldrich isn't enough. They like Arron Afflalo too much to take James Harden, and JR Smith is there anyway.

I don't think Sam Presti would give up what it would take to get Nene. Maybe someone could happen re: taking back Al Harrington, but even then, doesn't seem like a thing Presti would do and I imagine other teams would offer more...

@Keith
Are you being serious? Have you ever watched the Knicks?

Miller (the same Miller that has been frequently benched in crunch time this year in favor of Patty Mills) by a mile? over Felton? I would say that matchup is a wash, and possibly favors Felton. Matthews is better than Afflalo, but I will take the two deep of Afflalo-Smith over Roy-Mathews anyday.

Batum being better than Chandler "hands down" is the most laughable of your claims. Look at their stats this year and get back to me on that one.

Portland is obviously better at the 4, but if your going to call Nene/Camby a wash I would have to strongly disagree. Offensive centers are much harder to come by, and Camby is like 500 years old and currently hurt.

ATH :@justin

Reportedly his wife’s family is in Colorado and they want to stay there. But why would he have put out that wish list last month? I’m sure we’ll hear more about it before Thursday.

he said they'll only stay if they are in contention. Since they are no longer, he's would be willing to leave if a proper deal to a contender is made. That would just help the Thunder even more.

George Karl said Lawson is likely his starting point guard. Denver isn't done if that's the case.

@justin

Reportedly his wife's family is in Colorado and they want to stay there. But why would he have put out that wish list last month? I'm sure we'll hear more about it before Thursday.

@justin

I forgot Ty Lawson.

Anyway, they'll need a star player to make some noise obviously, so we'll see how they play it after this year.

@justin
But can we outbid Houston?

Denver's got better depth than Portland right now. JR Smith, Al Harrington, Kenyon Martin, Mosgov, Andersen, they've got a glut.

I also think Wilson Chandler's had a better season than Nic Batum, but boy has Chandler come down to Earth recently.

Keith :@DJ
R7
KD was luck, Russ was good management.

Exactly.

So Denver will probably lose Nene in the offseason now, right? So they have incentive to trade him?

@DJ R7
KD was luck, Russ was good management.

@DJ R7

My point is they need that "Superstar", and too find one is luck, OR really good management like ours.

@andrew
Wait, you don't think Portland has a considerably better roster than Denver?
Felton v Miller - Miller by a mile.
Afflalo v Matthews - Matthews is more than a great role player.
Chandler? v Batum - Batum, hands down.
Gallinari v Aldridge - Aldridge by a light year.
Nene v Camby - Elite efficient scorer v elite rebounder/defender, probably a wash.

Portland is a bit older, but better at almost every position. Denver is nowhere near as good as Portland, and Portland is looking to retool the future of their team.

Keith :@prye05

You’re right, this trade was better than no trade. I never meant to imply otherwise. I’m just saying, they’re still going to be a bad team that will need to rely on a lot of luck to become good again.

right? look at it like this. Cleveland landed Lebron the one superstar everyteam needs, and filled it with nothing but role players. That didn't win them a championship. So saying this team of Denver will be a threat to us in the next two years with the young guys they will have, and already have is not true. Look at Favors, or the 2nd pick thats playing for Philly. Neither of them are doing anything big for their teams, and yet there were people saying that the rookie in Philly should have been num 1 in the draft. No team that has ever been a serious team in the playoffs or looks to be serious has ever been there without a "Superstar". Nene, Love, Westbrook(at the moment), Bosh, Griffin, Rondo, Iggy, Johnson, All those guys all-stars, Though they aren't "Superstars." Some of them never will be, some of them will be in the future. For Denver they need that "Superstar" Durant, Lebron, Kobe, Carmelo, Amare, Nowizki, Wade, all those guys are just a list of superstars.

First of all, Felton is in my opinion a better PG for D'antoni's offense. Secondly, New York WAS BIDDING AGAINST THEMSELVES. Sure this may not look like a bad deal, but all indications were that New York had all the leverage. They didn't have to try to make an even trade. Carmelo was leaving Denver no matter what, and Denver had to get back something in return, lest they end up like Cleveland.

Also, look at Portland's roster. Is it much better than Denver's right now? I don't think so, and they are currently the 5th seed. Anyone who thinks Denver is gonna be horrible now is just plain wrong imo.

@prye05
You're right, this trade was better than no trade. I never meant to imply otherwise. I'm just saying, they're still going to be a bad team that will need to rely on a lot of luck to become good again.

@prye05
Financially, they are in good shape. That may be important if they start losing a lot. The draft is kind of a crap shoot, especially this year. Also, I just don't see how they get lottery picks for any of the players they have (outside Nene). Lottery teams aren't good teams, and their would surely be protection regardless. None of the players Denver received would be described as "difference makers" for a lottery team.

Maybe you're right, and maybe Denver can find a way to turn the garbage they have into some high draft picks. But, considering the garbage they got in the first trade, the conservative nature of this year's NBA, and the prohibitively high regard teams have for their first round picks, I just don't see it. Denver could probably load up on late teens and early 20s picks, but I don't see that doing much for their future of not having any elite talent.

But hey, if they want picks (or pick equivalents), we have plenty to offer ourselves, and there is more than one player I'd be happy to scavenge form the Denver carcass.

@Grolgar
You're also missing the fact that for the Nuggets they were most likely going to lose Melo anyway so instead of getting nothing like what Cleveland and Toronto got for their stars last year they went out and got 4 guys who started for NYK which Felton is 8 years younger than Billups and the other 3 guys are all under the age of 25... plus a lot less expensive. So getting all of that for someone you weren't going to get anything for is a pretty good trade in my opinion. Further to that point... if they suck really bad the rest of this year they could win the lottery (after all that is why it is called the lottery) and get that star player it's happened before.

@Keith

Agreed. The Nuggets will not be a good team. The first key to winning in this league is to have a bonafide star. Everything else comes next. How are the Nuggets going to get a star player again? New York won this trade. People are completely ignoring that fact that they got Melo AND Billups. Those are the 2 best players in the trade... NY will be slightly improved this year and in the future. The Nuggets will have to turn these assets into a star and I don't see it happening..

@Keith
There are already reports of a package of first round picks for some of the players they got. Plus Houston has offered more picks and prospects for Nene. So if any of those deals go through which I think at least one or two trades will still happen for them then those are the picks I'm referring to. No i don't think the 2014 pick they got is really worth a whole lot but an unprotected first round pick from some of the teams they're talking to right now is worth a lot. In fact it might be that very superstar you're saying they don't have. I'm not saying they are at a point of contention right now, I'm just saying that they didn't put themselves into a bad situation considering they could have lost Melo this summer for nothing so getting 4 starters off another team and cap space is never a bad thing.

@prye05
Firstly, let's not go overboard with their picks. The only first rounder they got was NY's 2014 pick. That won't be a lottery pick. The others included are second rounders (NY doesn't have any other picks to give). Also, I think you are seriously understimating the lack of a star. Do you want to know what a team filled with mostly mid-level talents gets you (besides Nene, that's all they have)? Just look at this year's Detroit Pistons. Denver has a better cap future, but it doesn't change the fact that the collection of talent they now have isn't ever going to be any sort of playoff threat on their own.

@justin
But with what? They can't re-trade any of the NY guys unless it can be worked out into single player deals. Nene is now the best player on their team. The only guys with serious trade value are Afflalo and Lawson, guys the team is better off keeping at this point. The best they could hope would be to dangle Felton or Gallinari to a team if they'll also take on Harrington - and no team is going to do that. No one is suddenly going to swoop in and offer another high end talent for the last ditch package they could get from the asset-less Knicks.

@justin
Haha yeah he'd probably sign Curry to a new contract... after all they do need a center since they just traded Curry and Mozgov away lol

I think the biggest issue for NYK is Donnie Walsh getting undermined. He's probably gone. Imagine if Isiah comes back?

@justin
I could see it going both ways with them making more trades now to get more picks, but I could also see them seeing what they have right now and making more trades closer to the draft so they know what they have and what they need and kind of what will be in the draft.

@Keith
Rebuilding around Ty Lawson, Nene, Afflalo, Chandler, Gallinari, and multiple first round picks... not to mention the fact that they are now under the cap gives them quite a bit of flexibility. So going forward they have lots of options similar to a team like the Thunder. Yes, they don't have any superstars right now, but sometimes having a team is a lot more dangerous than having just one player...

@Keith

I'm thinking Denver will do more before the deadline ends.

I love this trade as a Thunder fan. The Knicks get better, but who cares, they still aren't a contender and aren't in our conference. Minny shells out 10 million for the right to watch Anthony Randolph languish on the bench and never develop. Denver replaces their two best players with Raymond Felton (a mediocre PG who can't shoot) and Danilo Gallinari (a tweener forward whose only real skill is outside shooting). Chandler doesn't impress me and the rest are spare parts.

For all those saying how good Denver might be soon, or how good a chance they have to rebuild faster, what do you see that I don't? Felton-Chandler-Gallinari weren't that good in the East, in the perfect system for them, alongside Amare. Now they are suddenly supposed to be even a .500 team in the West (the WEST, people) without Amare OR Melo to carry them? Sorry, Nene ain't cutting it when there's that much of a hole to fill.

I can't wait until Deron leaves Utah, and we can just own our division (assuming we have a big man to compete with Memphis). This is a great thing. Denver isn't going anywhere until they luck out in the draft again (I don't consider 35 wins "going anywhere" compared to the Thunder). Minny didn't get any better. NY is going to be knocked out in the Eastern playoffs every year.

@KB
He hasn't officially signed it, and this trade hasn't been officially approved yet... but chances are he will indeed sign an extension which is i believe worth 3 more years added on to his current contract which would take and give the Knicks control of Melo and Amare for the rest of this season and the next 4 after that, but I might be mistaken.