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Should KD’s rip move be called a foul?

by Royce Young on March 30, 2011 at 12:27 pm 55 Comments

Victor Baldizon/NBAE/Getty Images

Kevin Durant can thank Desmond Mason for a good number of points. Back in 2008, the Thunder’s first season in Oklahoma City, the former Oklahoma State star taught Durant the crafty “rip move.”

(If you’re not familiar, which I can’t believe how you wouldn’t be, it’s the move where KD baits the defender to stick his hand close and then swings his arms up drawing a shooting foul.)

Last night against the Warriors, Durant got two calls with it. One in the fourth quarter on a 3-pointer on Dorell Wright and then a big one in overtime on David Lee which gave KD three shots and put OKC up one with a minute left.

So as you might imagine, Golden State Warrior coach Keith Smart was not a fan of the move. He told the AP: “That shouldn’t be a call because defensive players, you’re trying to tell your guys to get up on a good player,” Smart said. “If the player’s going to bait you into a foul—and I understand it’s a rule, so there’s nothing we can do about it—but … who has the right to the space? We’ve got to come to a conclusion.”

Who has the right to space? Are you kidding me? What does that even mean? If Thabo gets up super tight on Monta Ellis — like really tight, touching even — and Ellis puts the ball on the floor and drives hard around him and Thabo can’t move his feet fast enough, thus picking up a blocking foul, is Keith Smart saying that shouldn’t be a foul? I mean, who has the right to the space? Ellis created the contact, Thabo was just playing defense. Right?

Or what about a pump fake? That’s baiting a defender into the air and makes it easier for contact to be created. No longer a foul either? I understand Smart’s point and surely he was miffed about the call in that situation, but a foul is a foul. That’s a league emphasis. A foul is a foul no matter when it’s called.

And I don’t deny it’s sort of a cheap, tacky play to use. It’s almost like calling a charge in pickup. It’s legal, but kind of frowned upon I guess. But how is it different that in football a quarterback intentionally underthrowing his receiver forcing a safety to run into him and draw pass interference? Isn’t that just a smart play? Isn’t that just taking advantage of the rules?

Actually, that’s exactly how KD sees it.

“They’ve said it’s a legal play, so I’m going to keep doing it until they tell me I can’t,” Durant said after the game. “That’s when I’ll stop.”

I remember Kenyon Martin being asked about it earlier in the season too after Durant got the Nuggets a few times with it. Martin said he’d like to “take the rip move out of basketball” and that he doesn’t think it’s playing basketball. I asked Durant about Martin’s comments and KD basically gave the same answer he gave last night. As long as they say I can do it, I’ll do it.

(Side note: I loved listening to KD describe it last night how he sees players aware of the move but almost can’t stop themselves for sticking their hands in there. KD was gesturing it too moving his hand in and out. I can only picture the mental battle going on for a poor defender trying to guard Durant.)

I can’t imagine actually re-examining the rip move. A defender makes contact with a shooter’s arms on a shot. How could that now not be a foul? Can you really make a ruling on how a player must go up for a shot? “No more swinging your arms up to shoot!” It’s simple: You don’t like getting called for it, back off. Don’t stick your hand in there. Look at the picture at the top. LeBron knew it was coming so he put his hands behind his back. Just move your feet if you want to guard Durant. You can’t start penalizing a smart offensive tactic.

Really, the rip move is an absolutely necessary move for Durant. Defenders try and crowd him. They try and get right up on him and take away his drive and ability to shoot over the top. With leniency on contact in those situations, especially when KD puts the ball on the floor, having something like the rip move is an equalizer. It’s a way to force defenders to back off. Kind of like a pitcher throwing a high hard one inside every now and then. You can’t crowd Durant’s plate. And if you do, he’ll tag you with the rip.

I’m sure the NBA Competition Committee will have a discussion about it in the offseason because a couple players and coaches have brought it up. But I can’t see any change in it. Like I said, how can you possibly say that’s not a foul? And what’s the punishment for doing it? A turnover? Offensive foul? Jump ball? Just not calling an obvious foul a foul anymore?

Taking away a legal tactic from an offensive player is just ridiculous. Like I said, you want to take away pump fakes too?

Via TBJ: Make sure to read Trey Kerby’s take on it too.

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Jared Eichler
Jared Eichler 5pts

A defender has the right to his own space that his "body" vertically occupies. When he sticks his arms out horizontally towards the offensive player and into his space he is no longer occupying his own space, it kind of becomes a "no mans land". It's the same concept as when a defensive player under the basket is called for a foul for not being straight up with his hands; once he puts them out away from his body he is no longer vertical. It is interesting to note that Michael Cooper (one of the better defenders this league has ever seen) used to play defense with both hands in a vertical position with a 90 degree elbow bend. Too many players now try to defend only the dribble and not the passing lanes and Durant is more than happy to expose players defensive weaknesses.

oboy
oboy 5pts

the only way i can see it not being called a foul is if they determined it wasn't a shooting motion, which can't be done since KD has made multiple shots on the rip move this season

james hardens beard
james hardens beard 5pts

Well the good news is that I don't see Vince Carter dropping 30+ on us again tonight... Nor do I see Dudley doing it... I'll be at the game tonight... nothing worse than the possibility of OKC losing in one of the 2 games per year I get to attend now... Man I miss Oklahoma...

Sammy
Sammy 5pts

justin :
I guess you mean favorites in a series.

Yeah.

justin
justin 5pts

I guess you mean favorites in a series.

justin
justin 5pts

I don't think we'll be favored in Denver.

Sammy
Sammy 5pts

@TempBoy Brandon
The Nuggs are playing great. They haven't just been beating their opponents, they've been crushing them. I'm really excited for the two games we have just before the playoffs; we're the favorites, but those two games will help assess by just how much.

TempBoy Brandon
TempBoy Brandon 5pts

Saw this posted by a Thunder fan on an ESPN blog... what do you guys think?

"That's my question.. why they being so hyped up?

Yes, the Nuggets are 12-4 without Melo.

Let's examine their 12 wins....
--- 6 wins against teams that are .500 or below. (and also a loss to a below .500 team)
--- 3 wins against up and down middle of the road teams. (Atlanta x2, and New Orleans..... also, a loss to Portland)
--- Now, these next 3 wins are where everyone is acting like Denver is the next great thing....

VS. BOSTON - They won on the EXACT DAY that Boston lost K. Perkins and N. Robinson, practically half the Boston team was depressed and lacking the emotion to win a game. (plus they only had 4 reserves that night... D. West, Von Wafer, Chris Johnson, and Avery Bradley... not many teams will win anything with that bench). Boston scored 15 pts. or less in 2 of the 4 quarters, clearly they weren't involved in the game. Plus, we've seen how GREAT Boston has been playing since their wonderful trade.

VS. SPURS - It took San Antonio 2 months to lose finally lose 4 games...... They are now win-less without Tim Duncan and have lost 4 games in a row, in only 6 days... AND COUNTING. (enough said there)

VS. MEMPHIS - This is the only respectable win out of all 12 of the Nuggets wins without Melo. ALTHOUGH, Memphis is one of the worst road teams (15-23) vs. one of the league's best, Denver (30-7).

And then, there's their losses... at Miami, at Orlando, at Clippers, at Portland.... no examination here, 3 of these 4 are just flat out better than Denver."

My thoughts: this Thunder fan is wrong. You can examine wins and losses like that all day long and make them fit your argument. I, for one, am impressed by the Nuggets and think they'll give us a tough series. I think we'll beat them, but I'm not gonna take them lightly at all.

justin
justin 5pts

Gortat has been great for Phoenix but some of it is the Nash Effect.

walrusmuse
walrusmuse 5pts

I love watching Royal play, as much as I love watching him cheer from the bench. Seems like such a cool dude

TempBoy Brandon
TempBoy Brandon 5pts

@Thunder Beard
I'm the same way. But for me, it's not necessarily because I think the outcome of the game could be altered. For me, it's just a show of respect. Also, in a blowout you get to see guys like Royal and Cole play. I know they are garbage minutes, but they are important minutes for them.

@f5alcon
I will say, that is the one benefit from everyone leaving early.

innocent bystander
innocent bystander 5pts

also from BSOTS:

"Kendrick Perkins is not an All-Star, not even as good as Gortat."

are you reading this Perk?
(evil grin)

walrusmuse
walrusmuse 5pts

I also recall that KD was trapped hy Wallace in the PDX game and was getting mauled, when KD tried to create space he was called for an offensive. It was silly

walrusmuse
walrusmuse 5pts

I'm fine with the rip. It's a pump fake type move. If you think the rip is cheap, then the NBA needs to give room for the offensive player to create space via elbow or arm.

KD rarely gets the call unless a defender really is handy in front of him.

So it comes down to: do we want guys elbowing to create space (I was a center when I played ball and I was taught-taught mind you-early on as a kid to elbow away anyone in my vicinity after I grabbed a board).

So on that front I would like to discuss how incredibly easy it is for a smaller player to draw a foul on a big man. So dang easy, even if big man gets a clean block.

High school issues, I know hahaha

innocent bystander
innocent bystander 5pts

@seth_22
different scenario though: without charge calls, players could drive to the rim and run over people with impunity, greatly increasing risk of injury (for both). whereas, to prevent the rip, you just have to give a little space and be careful with your hand placement. The advantages, and consequences, are totally different.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

i like when people leave early, makes it less busy when i leave at the end of the game

Thunder Beard
Thunder Beard 5pts

@TempBoy Brandon
You could set Loud city on fire and Im not leaving the game until the clock is run down. too much can happen, and last night proved that.

seth_22
seth_22 5pts

@4razr
I am also not a fan of the rip move for many of the reasons you stated. I think the right to space is fundemental to any foul in the NBA. For instance there would be no such thing as a charge, in those situations it would be a block every time since there was contact made. The defender should have the right to be in good defensive position without being called for a foul when the offensive player initiates the contact.

I am fine with KD using it as long as they are calling it this way.

innocent bystander
innocent bystander 5pts

innocent bystander :@Landstander

Reply with this…
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=daily+thunder
hehe, that makes it easy enough

of course, I'd have to have "internets" here in Oklahoma to use it
:(
.
.
.
;)

innocent bystander
innocent bystander 5pts

@Landstander
Reply with this…
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=daily+thunder

hehe, that makes it easy enough

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

@innocent bystander
lol, i tried to join their site to reply but it wont let me post for 24 hrs

Landstander
Landstander 5pts

innocent bystander :looking at the (sort of) pre-game at Bright Side Of The Sun, came across this comment:
“Do they have internets yet in Oklahoma?”
because the WTLC site has no comments
um, a simple search for “Thunder blog” might un-confuse him
so I have to ask“Do they google yet in Arizona?”

Reply with this...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=daily+thunder

I go back and forth on the rip move.

I think I've settled on 'this counts for all the fouls they DON'T call'.

gokc
gokc 5pts

I like the rip move. It allows the player to create space. Back in the day they use to say "you reach, I teach" as in if you as a defender keep sticking your hands to close and crowding me i'll create space via hard jab or crossover that "inadvertantly" elbows you in the head. The league is less physical now and Durant as of now doest have that strenght, but the rip move allows him to punish defenders another way

innocent bystander
innocent bystander 5pts

looking at the (sort of) pre-game at Bright Side Of The Sun, came across this comment:

"Do they have internets yet in Oklahoma?"

because the WTLC site has no comments

um, a simple search for "Thunder blog" might un-confuse him

so I have to ask
"Do they google yet in Arizona?"
;)

TempBoy Brandon
TempBoy Brandon 5pts

@4razr
Well said. Pretty much describes what I say to my brother when talking about it, "Sure it's kind of a cheap move, but KD gets fouled all the time and they don't call it, so I don't care."

Also, is it just me or does anyone else get annoyed when so many people leave a game early when it's "decided". Everyone left last night when we were up 106-100. The game really was "over" at that point. But everyone that left (there were a ton) missed out on a great overtime and finish. Serves 'em right. Hope they were kicking themselves when they got back to their cars and realized it went into overtime. One of my pet peeves.

4razr
4razr 5pts

I like what ATH had to say in the bolts thread:
"Every coach hates the rip move. But no one tells their own players to refrain. Pop is quite outspoken against the rip (or has been) yet Manu executes it regularly.
I think it should become a side-out foul. Some refs seem to call it that way already."
I like the idea of it being a side-out foul, resulting in at most 2 foul shots rather than 3. Really hard distinction to make, though--when is a player fouled in the act of shooting, and when is it a rip move that is not a shooting foul?

Joshua G
Joshua G 5pts

Hey Royce. They were really complimentary of you in the DDL chat last night. But I haven't seen you in there in a long time. Why haven't you been partaking? Don't most of the other true hoop bloggers jump in?

Heysloth
Heysloth 5pts

It seems dirty... But its no crab dribble... I like it, feel bad every time it happens but it makes me smile... like its a big joke and the only one who doesnt get it is the ref, but if its within the rules I dont understand why anyone can have a problem with it...

Grolgar
Grolgar 5pts

Great write up, Royce. It's everything I wanted to say... WHY ARE YOU STEALING MY THOUGHTS?!?

4razr
4razr 5pts

I'm not a fan of the rip move. First, because even a stationary defender in good position can get called on it (I thought the foul on Lee in OT was cheap--but I haven't reviewed it. Looked to me like his arm was out to the side, which makes it really difficult as a defender.) Funny, I was thinking about this last night--why don't I like the rip? So, second reason, there is no purpose to the move other than drawing the foul. In the instances Royce cites above, a drive may be done in a way to pick up a foul, but is also intended to put the driver in a better position to score. A pump fake may be used to create contact, but there is an obvious advantage for the shooter in getting the defender off his feet in terms of getting the ball in the basket. When KD takes his arms down in a circular motion and then up through his defenders arms, there is absolutely no purpose to the move other than to draw a foul. KD makes one of those shots about 1 in 100 times. When the foul isn't called, he looks ridiculous. I dislike moves where there is no purpose other than to draw the foul. That leads me to the third reason I dislike it--I don't like KD depending on a move that requires the refs to bail him out. I'm afraid that, in the playoffs, in crunch time, in OT, that he is not going to get that call. If he doesn't get the call, 99 times out of 100, it leads to a turnover. At least with a drive, or a pump fake, the move is more likely to lead to a basket or to retain possession even if the foul isn't called.
I do think, however, that refs need to call fouls on more of the physical contact that is used to defend Durant both on and off the ball. He gets pushed around constantly in ways that should, by the rules, be a foul, but are often not called. It's a catch-22, because as many have said, there are multiple fouls that could be called (on and off the ball) on virtually every possession in an NBA game. If refs are not going to call other physical contact (especially off the ball), but are going to call the rip move, KD almost has to use it. So to close, I still don't like it, but I understand it.

andrew
andrew 5pts

Since I am relatively new to the NBA and don't know a ton about its rule changing history I found this:
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

Pretty interesting. Didn't realize how much roughness and late-game fouling was a problem when the league first started.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

@Sammy
yeah it is a good play, just wish durant was a better screener it would be even more deadly then.

Thunder405
Thunder405 5pts

Maybe you can work on playing better defense instead of trying to change the rule. Or for the guys complaining, maybe they should embrace it and learn it like KD did. LOL!

Keith
Keith 5pts

The rip move exists in the rule book for the same reason the league outlawed hand-checking. The league would rather have high scoring games and stars than more physical, possibly injury-incurring tactics. Not to say it's worked, because it hasn't. Teams are slower now than in the past, because they don't need to run all the time to score.

And just to throw in my conspiracy theory: Both times that significant defensive rules changes came in during the last 25 years, it was on the heels of a defensive-minded Piston championship.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

just in time for d league playoffs.

under current rules the rip move is a foul, but i think a lot of the times when the offensive player creates contact it shouldnt be a defensive foul

Sammy
Sammy 5pts

Pruiti on OKC's Westbrook/KD PnP:
http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/03/30/oklahoma-citys-new-crunch-time-play/
Necessary reading.

andrew
andrew 5pts

justin :
Cole Aldrich has been assigned to Tulsa.

I guess this means Collison is gonna be back soon.

justin
justin 5pts

Cole Aldrich has been assigned to Tulsa.

Sammy
Sammy 5pts

@innocent bystander
There's an argument to be made that allowing defenders to have their fingers up the ball handler's noses would be better for the game. It would encourage more ball movement and fewer cheap FTs. But as long as it's legal, I'm with KD on this one.

innocent bystander
innocent bystander 5pts

I think the rip move is legit. Without it, the defender could practically have their finger up the ball handler's nose.

jzwink
jzwink 5pts

I like the picture. Didn't James play with his arms back during a KD possession after KD got the rip move to be called?

Mark!
Mark! 5pts

@Royce Young

I remember that one. After that, I was surprised DUrant got the rip call in OT. The first one was a super slomo, obvious rip and the ref let it go. Just figured they weren't interested in calling it this game, but apparently they only wanted to call it when it mattered. Or at least increased their chances of going home.

Royce Young
Royce Young 5pts

@justin
Yeah KD actually said last night there was another play earlier in the game where he did it and was fouled and didn't get the call.

justin
justin 5pts

@justin

Which also leads to times where maybe it's a legitimate foul and it isn't called.

Royce Young
Royce Young 5pts

@justin
Yeah the Gerald Wallace one was the same way. You're right, it's a tough call. A lot of calls are though.

Royce Young
Royce Young 5pts

@kfmsooner
I haven't written on it before.

justin
justin 5pts

The only thing I do not like about it is that it's very tough to call. Last night there was one that went off Dorrell Wright's leg. It goes so fast and (especially in Durant's case) there are limbs everywhere, the refs can't always tell if it's clean.

kfmsooner
kfmsooner 5pts

Haven't we had this post before. Repost Clark Matthews take from the Bolts thread and let's be done with it. It's a foul.

Trackbacks

  1. Should the “rip” move be legal? | ProBasketballTalk says:
    March 30, 2011 at 5:03 pm

    [...] Durant’s “rip” move is clearly effective. But is it underhanded? Daily Thunder’s Royce Young chimes in: Last night against the Warriors, Durant got two calls with [the rip move]. One in the fourth [...]

  2. The Point Forward » Posts Court Vision: The latest around the league « says:
    March 30, 2011 at 5:21 pm

    [...] a more irritating maneuver than the “rip-through” move that Kevin Durant has practically claimed as his own. NBA fans may despise the seemingly arbitrary block/charge distinction or a number of other rules, [...]

  3. The Morning Fade – 4.1.11 says:
    April 1, 2011 at 10:32 am

    [...] Looks like KD owes everything he knows (slight exaggeration) to a former Cowboy (Daily Thunder) [...]

  4. George Hill and the Green Light - NYTimes.com says:
    April 5, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    [...] three-pointers, hit a short jumper, and then successfully executed the patented, controversial “rip move” to earn three foul shots and pull off an 11-2 run all on his own. Toss in an extra basket and a [...]

  5. Off the Dribble: George Hill and the Green Light | Il Neurone USA says:
    April 5, 2011 at 5:58 pm

    [...] strike a brief jumper, and afterwards successfully executed a patented, argumentative “rip move” to acquire 3 tainted shots and lift off an 11-2 run all on his own. Toss in an additional basket [...]

  6. Friday Bullets: Believe the Hype! | FIVE Basketball-Magazin - NBA Blog says:
    April 8, 2011 at 5:17 am

    [...] schmeiße den Ball weg und bekomme ein Foul wenn mir mein Verteidiger zu nahe kommt”-Move koscher ist. Ach, und … nicht dass der Frontcourt der Celtics gestern übermäßig einschüchternd [...]

  7. » Blog Archive » Bulletin du vendredi : Believe the Hype! says:
    May 16, 2011 at 11:03 am

    [...] lâche la balle et encaisse une faute lorsque l’adversaire est trop près de moi », est légal. Ah oui, et … même si la ligne défensive des Celtics hier n’a pas eu un effet [...]

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