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I can’t remember the exact game, but it was definitely December of 2008 and the Thunder were definitely something like 2-25.
And I was definitely a little bummed out.
I was at the game with my buddy Andy and as we watched what would inevitably become another Thunder loss, we fantasized about the future. We were still pretty shocked that we were even in Oklahoma City watching our very own professional basketball team, but the thought of the future was fun to talk about.
“Think about when they get good,” he said.
“Think about if they make the playoffs,” I said.
He shook his head. Almost impossible to even conjure up the thought. Then he took it up a notch.
“Man, think about like a Western Conference Finals series here in OKC. Wouldn’t that just be… insane?”
We both sort of just laughed. Yes it would be insane, especially because the team in front of us was a long way from it. We were watching Earl Watson and Robert Swift with Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook. We were watching a team that would eventually finish with 23 wins and use the lottery pick they got to take a bearded man named James Harden. There was no Serge Ibaka or Kendrick Perkins. No Eric Maynor, Daequan Cook or Thabo Sefolosha. Heck, Scott Brooks wasn’t even officially the head coach yet.
At the time, all of that future talk seemed so far, far away. Andy and I both grew up with Jordan’s Bulls, but some of our favorite memories of the NBA was watching the Western Finals with the Lakers playing the Blazers and Kings. That was some serious stuff. Intense games, wild crowds, huge moments. The kind of moments that last forever. The kind of moments you find yourself bringing up with friends 30 years from now.
We dreamed of our team having those moments. But back then, we figured we both might have gray hair and grandchildren before we got some.
And now look. The Thunder are in the Western Conference Finals against the Dallas Mavericks. Four wins away from the NBA Finals. Four! That group of 20-year-olds are just 22-year-olds. It’s like the Thunder skipped a step or something. No long suffering for us. The most we did was in that inaugural season and we were all too fired up to even care.
Even with that surreal turnaround, there was a sense of expectation in this postseason. After winning 55 games and having homecourt in the first round, beating Denver was expected. Then after OKC drew the Grizzlies instead of the top-seeded Spurs, advancing was supposed to happen again. Anything less, despite the pretty amazing season, would’ve been disappointing.
Finally though, the Thunder are playing with house money. Finally, the expectations for more have been shed. A series loss to the Mavs and nobody would dare call this season a disappointment. Disappointed? Of course. The season though would be a smashing success. Not to say that’s a license to lose, because obviously the team doesn’t give two craps about that, but I’m just saying, we’re all going home fairly happy no matter what now.
But here’s the thing: Even with that and even with the incredible transition we’ve seen over three years, an opportunity is here. The Mavericks are far from an elite team and the Thunder, whether we’re afraid to actually admit it or not, are very, very good. Championship good? At this point, why not?
I still can’t shake thinking back to dreaming of the Western Finals though. To actually be here, well, I can’t say I saw it coming. It’s the good life right now. Some teams go decades without being games like we’re about to watch. Sam Presti has tried to craft a roster that would be in these situations consistently for years to come. This was the plan, this was the vision. Just not so soon. Most everyone saw the Thunder as a couple years away last season when they made a surprising playoff run. Most saw them as being at least another year away this season when they claimed the four-seed heading into the playoffs.
But the Thunder don’t seem to operate on the same clock of all the prognosticators. They do things at their own pace, which happens to pretty darn fast. People are still going to say it’s too much too soon for this young group, that next year they’ll be ready. Well, next is here. Next is now.
Recent History
The Mavs took the season series 2-1 over the Thunder. And to stress you out a bit, OKC’s win came while Dallas was down and out without Dirk and Caron Butler. Russell Westbrook hasn’t played well this season against the Mavs and KD hasn’t shot the ball that great. Of course the usual caveat goes here that the Thunder hasn’t played the Mavs since the Perk trade, so no Jeff Green on Dirk, but instead it’s Serge Ibaka.
If you remember that first meeting though where the Mavs won 111-103, the Thunder held a big fourth quarter lead and ended up being outscored 36-22 mainly because OKC couldn’t stop Jason Terry.
The Starting Five
PG: Russell Westbrook obviously has the speed, strength and athleticism edge on the 38-year-old Jason Kidd. But don’t doubt Kidd’s abilities. He’s turned himself into a knock-down 3-point shooter and can still find a man on a fast break as well as anyone. The edge goes to the Thunder here, but Kidd’s still got game.
SG: This matchup is really kind of funny. Thabo versus DeShawn Stevenson, or, the “not the actual shooting guard matchup.”
SF: Clearly Kevin Durant has an advantage over Shawn Marion, but The Matrix has a pretty solid history of defending KD well. Marion has long arms and while he’s not going to bully Durant near as much as Shane Battier or Tony Allen, he is going to do well at keeping KD out of the paint. However, Butler had the task of checking KD most of the time. According to Synergy Sports, Marion defended Durant on only nine of the 48 shot attempts KD took in half-court sets.
PF: No doubt Dallas has a pretty strong advantage with Dirk against whoever the Thunder throws at him. Because really, it doesn’t matter. Often the best defense on Dirk is just hoping he misses. Length sometimes works, so Serge Ibaka will obviously get the start on him. Dirk isn’t a bruising post player like Zach Randolph, so Ibaka will likely become more valuable in this series than Nick Collison. Still, you’re going to see a number of different things here I’m sure.
C: It’s OKC’s almost-center versus the new guy. Tyson Chandler versus Kendrick Perkins. An easy column for someone would be to look at who the Thunder would rather have, but either way, this is a defensive push. Perk isn’t going to have to necessarily defender Chandler like he was Nene and then Marc Gasol. It’ll be more about keeping Chandler off the glass. Which could be a challenge because of Chandler’s size and athleticism.
Benches
If you ask me, which you kind of are because you’re reading this, the series is going to be won by one of these team’s benches. Jason Terry and James Harden are both terrific X-factors off the pine. Nazr Mohammed is a solid veteran backup big man, sort of like Brendan Haywood. J.J. Barea is the often surprising point guard, much like Eric Maynor. Peja Stojakovic is the marksman, just like Daequan Cook. Collison though, I don’t think the Mavs have a Collison. Yeah, Brian Cardinal certainly fits the profile, but Cardinal doesn’t actually play and Collison is a lot better.
Whatever the case, the benches for both teams are going to be vital. Barea torched the Lakers, Terry was on fire from outside and Peja turned back the clock dropping 3s from everywhere. Harden, Cook, Collison and the crew are going to have to support the starting five well.
Five Important Questions
1. Can the Thunder defend the 3?
The Mavs took 23 3-pointers a game in the three meeting previous and shot 37 percent. Dallas hit a total of 26 3s in the three meeting, including 11 in the game Dirk was hurt. This is a change of pace in a big way because Memphis avoided the 3-point shot mostly, as they were last in the league in makes and attempts. The Grizzlies were great inside, while Dallas is a lot more like Denver in that they’re more jumpshooting oriented.
The Thunder have a different defensive structure now though in that because Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic are gone, OKC prefers not to double and dig down on players inside. The Thunder’s perimeter defenders can stay at home a bit more, not allowing all those open looks. Dallas is great at finding spaces to settle into for a shot though, so it’s about not losing track of your man if he slinks off to the 3-point line.
2. Who guards KD?
As I mentioned, Shawn Marion will likely get the start, but he didn’t defend Durant as much as Stevenson did during the regular season. While Stevenson might be a bit more suitable because of his quickness, the Mavs are in a bind here because Stevenson isn’t intended to play extended minutes. The Mavs want to avoid having Peja on Durant at all costs, so it’s likely going to be a combination of Marion and Stevenson.
I’m sure the goal for Scott Brooks is to work the matchups where he can go small and catch the Mavs forced to stick Dirk on KD. That would be an ideal play and something I’m sure Brooks is thinking about.
3. Who guards Dirk?
Serge Ibaka is going to get the start on Dirk, but it’ll be combination of him and Nick Collison mostly. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Durant on Dirk in long stretches either. Going small here could be a benefit to the Thunder because it’ll force Rick Carlisle to match up.
The issue with Dirk is that he’s going to get his looks regardless of who you put on him. The question comes down to if you’re willing to send an extra defender to try and get him to give it up. The Lakers tried that and Dirk willingly passed out of the double to wide open shooters. It most decidedly did not work for L.A.
4. How big a factor is the Mavs rest?
Obviously you’d rather sweep and have the opportunity to sit and watch for a week, but I do think there could be some signs of rust in at least Game 1 for Dallas. The Mavs were playing so ridiculously well against the Lakers and had an incredible rhythm going. Now all that had to be put on ice for a week. Teams are used to playing every other night. That’s the NBA season. So while the Thunder only have a day off, I think it’s more about not getting a chance to prepare and not as much about rest.
OKC will likely be in a bit better rhythm because the Thunder have been playing. Dallas may show some signs of rust, but the Mavs have had the opportunity to prepare.
5. How big a factor is not having homecourt?
I say very big. This is the first time this postseason the Thunder have had to start a series on the road. Against the Nuggets and Grizzlies, OKC had the luxury of preparing at home, sleeping in their own beds and then going to their own gym. Now, they’ve got to go on the road, even if it’s just a little ways down I-35.
It’s a different scenario because instead of focusing on holding serve, the Thunder now have to try and just steal a game in Dallas and take over homecourt. Coming back 1-1 is the plan, but it’s not over if it’s 0-2. A whole different mindset here.
Four Good Stats
1. Free throws are key for OKC, but against the Mavs, the Thunder got to the line almost five fewer times a game.
2. The Mavs outrebounding OKC on average 46.3 to 40.0 in the three games. The Mavs’s rebounding rate was 53.7 percent to OKC’s 46.3.
3. The Mavs are one of the best midrange shooting teams in the league and against the Thunder, things were no different. Against OKC, Dallas shot 48 percent from midrange.
4. KD against Dallas: 29.3 ppg, 52 percent from the field, 30 percent from 3 and six free throw attempts per game. His true shooting was 62 percent, his usage at 34.1 percent and offensive rating 104.1.
Three Talking Points
1. Is this the start of a rivalry?
Everyone is going to talking about this because of the proximity of the teams. My take? I don’t care. Everyone wants to force a rivalry, but to me, they just happen. If anything, the Nuggets are feeling more rival-ish than anyone because of all the smack talking that went on between the fans, and media.
2. The zone.
In that comeback the Mavs had in the first game, it happened mainly because of a zone Dallas employed that dared the Thunder to shoot. At the time, OKC was an awful 3-point shooting team. The Thunder are better now, but not consistent. A player like Daequan Cook could be important as well as Durant and Harden being on target. Dallas is going to try to use the zone, but it’s a matter if OKC can shoot them out of it.
3. Experience.
Overrated in my mind. At this point, the Thunder have played 12 postseason games including a Game 7. Yes, they haven’t had Western Conference Finals exposure, but the pressure isn’t going to change. It’s going to be there regardless. Dallas is older, they’ve been here. The Thunder haven’t. But I don’t think that means as much as some might think.
The Pick
First, let me say as a big fan of Dirk and sort of the Mavs in general, that I’m pretty thrilled that the winner of this series is playing in The Finals. That’s very cool to me.
That said, boy I hope it’s the Thunder.
It’s going to take four very good games from OKC to get it done. Dallas is a team that does its thing and does it very well. They shoot, they defend and they rebound. They have a crunch time player in Dirk and they have X-factor scorers littered throughout the rotation. Winning a game on the road will be a challenge, as will winning period.
The Thunder actually have a good number of favorable matchups on their end and can really force the Mavs’ hand in a few areas. It’s a matter of playing within their game and just making shots. The games OKC beat Memphis, the Thunder shot the ball well. Amazing how good the Thunder’s offense can look when the ball goes through the hoop.
I like OKC a lot in this series because I think Dallas will have a hard time containing Durant and controlling Westbrook. But something in me can’t shake that it really feels like it’s Dirk’s time. He’s playing at such a high level, as are the Mavs, that I can’t go against the hot team. The Thunder are going to be right in this series, but a Game 7 on the road isn’t easy to win. And I think that’s what it comes down to. Mavericks in seven.
@James Church
Not trying to troll here, but seriously what kind of a problem do you have with Nugget fans? Both teams have different perspectives (Obviously because we like different teams), but all this bs you guys talk about how the fans here in Denver are crappy without any kind of basis for what you're saying is just ridiculous. There's always an idiot in every fanbase who takes sports too seriously, but that shouldn't reflect the fanbase as a whole.
Back to the real topic, this series should be interesting and could go either way but I see the Mavs winning this one in 6-7 games. Regardless of who wins I hope the winner of this series goes on to win it all. I can't stand the Heat/Bulls!
I can only count a handful of fans wearing Mavs gear in that picture. Petty and insignificant? Yes, but I still want to point it out. ;)
@Joshua G
So, you'd tell Kevin Durant he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of even COMPETING?!
Nah, it's literally a game - a competition, if you will - and I think anyone on this blog is here because they think the Thunder can and will comp- err, win.
@Crow
Yeah, that's it. I found it a few minutes after I posted.
@Joshua G
@bouzi4real
Internet says EaglesNest is at Austin Avenue Grill and Sports Bar, 935 W. Parker Rd. Plano, TX
http://eaglesnestdallas.com/
@kbro
Sign #1 that maybe Mavs fans won't be like Thuggets fans. That will be nice if it holds up... Welcome.
big mavs fan here. just wishing the thunder and their fans best of luck in what will hopefully be an amazing series. both teams have their matchup issues with eachother, so i think it'll come down to the adjustments made. if you want to follow a dallas-based source on the series, i report and write for dallasbasketball.com. it's obviously a tad biased, but indepth none the less. good luck to yall!
@bouzi4real
I'll be watching game 3 in Ft Worth on Saturday (have to give up my ticket) because of a bachelor party. I fully expect to get abused...
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/17/memphis-grizzlies-owner-%E2%80%9Cwere-not-trading-rudy-gay%E2%80%9D/
I am not sure about the griz "would have won the series going away", but the series would have been WAY different. I have to admit that the Thunder may not have won if Gay was playing. BUT, if Gay hadn't been hurt, then there is NO WAY the Griz are a mere #8 seed.
@j-mo
I would trade westbrook straight up for Kermit. Thoughts?
gr8ball83 :@j-moit really has very little to do with Green, and very much to do with what our team would be like if the trade had gone through for Chandler, and he had been terrible for 2 years. there’s no way we sign him to the contract Dallas did after him playing the way he did after the trade was rescinded.
My comment has very little to do with Jeff Green, but more to do with Kermit and "I'ts not easy being Green." I am very glad (now) that we didn't get Chandler. He's a great player, but I think Perk is the perfect fit for our team. The leadership he brings is a huge bonus.
I think Jeff Green will have a lot of growing to do in Boston, but I continue to believe he can be a very, very good player. I don't know about being KD's version of "very good", but still someone Boston will be happy to have. Not everyone can be a 21 and 22 year old phenom like KD and RW. in 5 or 10 years, we might finally understand just how special these 2 guys are.
@j-mo
it really has very little to do with Green, and very much to do with what our team would be like if the trade had gone through for Chandler, and he had been terrible for 2 years. there's no way we sign him to the contract Dallas did after him playing the way he did after the trade was rescinded.
@Joshua G
Wow a born and raised oklahoman who is a mavs fan. Sounds like most of the population of OKC before we got CP# and crew. Sadly it seems that your sis is a full convert and no longer an Oklahoman, darn shame.lol When we win in six you should do everything in your power to throw it in her face! Do this for all of DT.
Enjoy the game. I will most likely be at the house watching if i cannot find that Philly bar.
Hey people!!! Lay off Jeff Green. It's not easy being Green. (Corny, I know, but I had to.)
I grew up in the Dallas area and was a Mavs fan from their very inception. I lived and died with the western conference finals loss to LA in the 80's and the finals loss to Miami. My whole family still lives in DFW and all are Mavs fans. Having said that, I've been a Thunder season ticket holder since day one and the bond I feel with this team is so much greater than I had with the Mavs. I recently told a friend who asked who I was rooting for that I would root for the Thunder against the Cowboys! I think it's going to be a little strange, as it's the freaking Western Conference Finals, but I'm 100% Thunder now and for ever more! I hope our season ticket holders show up in strength and don't let Mavs fans get any appreciable number of tickets. I was disappointed in all the Grizzly fans at game 7. Go Thunder!
@kfmsooner
Seriously! I wish people would put down the crack pipe!
@gr8ball83
It's a terrible opinion and not correct. Tyson Chandler means no Eric Maynor or Daquean Cook. Jeff Green means no development space for Serge Ibaka. And it means Jeff Green would still be starting, playing 36 minutes, not rebounding or playing defense, chucking up shots from everywhere and being the below average player he is.
I wish our love affair with Jeff Green would end at some point. I don't know how much statistical and visual evidence people have to compile before we finally reach the consensus that Jeff Green was average at his very best. Why we have this longing to bring him back or imagine how 'good' we would be with him is laughable.
"Collison though, I don’t think the Mavs have a Collison." Um, how many teams do have a Nick Collison? Few. Those that have one, how many of them are actually as good as Nick Collison? I'll save you the trouble thinking about it. The answer is: None.
@gr8ball83 there is an article on espn about that trade and they made a similar conclusion. It drives me crazy how ppl just ignore facts to prove some point that's not really clever in the first place. Would we have preffered an atheletic 7 footer 2 years ago? Sure.... but Chandler would have been a wreck during those 2 years and not what he is now. I really doubt we resign him after paying him 12 mil a year to miss 34 games a year due to injury.
@bouzi4real
I live just east of downtown. My wife works nights and I have a daughter, so I'll be watching the game on my computer.
As for bars, isn't there a Philadelphia Eagles bar somewhere in north Dallas? I would think that anyone who goes to that bar would cheer for almost anyone playing against any Dallas team.
And speaking of Richardson, my sister lives there. She grew up in OKC and went to OU but moved to Dallas several years ago (before we even had the Hornets). She's a pretty big Mavs fan, but I told her she has to call herself a Texan instead of an Oklahoman if she continues to cheer for the Mavs.
Joshua G :@James ChurchIt will be. Dallas fans are terrible. I live in Dallas and they don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance in hell of OKC even competing. Because of the Cowboys, I think they’re a lot like Lakers and Yankees fans.
Im in dallas too. Are you watching the game at a bar today? If so I live in north Dallas (richardson area) and i'm looking for an OKC Thunder safe bar.
I have GOT to stop listening to the Sports Animal when they start talking about the Thunder. Actual statements from this morning.
"If the Chandler trade had gone through, and we had him instead of Perkins, and we still had Jeff Green, I think we would be the favorites to win it all this year."
And they both agreed that was true!!! Do they not understand that Tyson Chandler was AWFUL the year and a half after we rescinded the trade, that we probably would have cut bait on him just like Charlotte did, and that our team wouldn't look anything like they do now if that trade had gone through. Its the dumbest thing you could say at this point...
@Joe-Nas
... just let him take contested shots...
boy my english is getting bad...
Lefty :@Crow
@Joe-Nas
and double him in crunch time and make others make those shots. Always have someone on Dirk
sounds good to me, but if he's not feeling it (like KD in G5) just late him take contestet shots, same with Kidd. If he's not standing still and can put his feet straigt he's not very dangerous from 3...
Lefty :@Crow
@Joe-Nas
We’re not going to stop him, like we never really stopped Z-Bo, but we can hopefully at least turn him into a volume scorer for a game or two.
+1
@Joe-Nas
@Crow
The two best defenders the Mavs can put on KD are Marion and Stevenson. Stevenson can hurt you from deep, but I'd rather him taking those shots than Dirk. I say guard Nowitzki 1-on-1 for most of the game, and double him in crunch time and make others make those shots. Always have someone on Dirk, Terry, and Kidd, and leave open whoever they're guarding KD with for those clutch shots.
The biggest thing is to not even let Dirk get a shot off in a tight game. Which, even that is tough to do, cause he's an incredible player. But Collison is pretty skilled at denying and KD is long enough to make Dirk work. We're not going to stop him, like we never really stopped Z-Bo, but we can hopefully at least turn him into a volume scorer for a game or two.
Man, who thought that 2 years ago, May 17 would be such an important day, and it wouldn't be because of the NBA draft lottery?
As a longtime rockets fan, part of clutch city with Scotty Brooks. I've been pulling for thunder alll season, actually started last season during the lakers series. They've got a great chance against the mavs. Thunderup!!!!
@Crow
agreed, and I think we must make him work on D, whether with KD or Serge on him. I also think we have less problems with containing JJ than the Lakers and with either Russ or Maynor we should explore him on O. If the Mavs try to hide JJ by guarding Thabo he must come out of the corners and try to get to the zone, maybe get some post-ups... My feeling with Thabo is that he's just used very badly by the coaching staff. By now it should be clear to everyone that he is way more effectiv when slashing to the rim than by standing in the corner. by standing there he also has no chance for getting a O-Reb when rebounding is one of his strengths IMO (10th Guard in the League)...
@Joe-Nas
I generally agree, though I might change it late in the 4th and when he is really hot (on pace to beyond 30 pts) and also every once in awhile so Dallas doesn't get too comfortable with what they are facing.
I'm far from beeing a Coach or something, but I'd try to defend Dirk 1-1 and let him get his 30 ppg but stay at home with the shooters. LAL trew double teams at him and he just passed out of it and then the shooters killed LAL. Let one of the other 7 guys try to beat you. I mean theres just no one who can stopp him, why try? Defende everyone 1-1 and force Terry, Kidd or JJ to make shots and beat you...
Good idea..?
@Joshua G
RACE WAR! RAAACE WAR!!!
@James Church
It will be. Dallas fans are terrible. I live in Dallas and they don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell of OKC even competing. Because of the Cowboys, I think they're a lot like Lakers and Yankees fans.
The fascination with Justin just took a weird turn...
Also I hope our interaction with Dallas fans doesn't match the Nuggets fans. Our interaction with them was like a low-scale, nonsensical, socially irrelevant race war.
osano-whoa :
justin :
Ozarkhick :@justin
Didn’t you say you were going to make a game if we made the conference finals?
I won’t be able to make one this weekend but if we win one of the first two games I’ll go to a clinching game six.
If you make it out then we need to have some sort of Daily Thunder gathering so we can all meet the fabled Justin.
This!!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4Buev2eybnY/S2BJpQy9yfI/AAAAAAAAGeo/hHpqwFjIHp4/s1600-h/behold+the+badger.jpg
I wish... then I could actually live the extravagant NY / Miami lifestyle.
What can I say, you always put :) when talking about your job. It screams quiet confidence that you have more money than you need lol.
clarkem :
@osano-whoa
I definitely agree. From almost two years of reading comments on this board I’ve come to the conclusion he’s probably rich, (splits time between NY and Miami) quite intelligent, and reasonably down to earth. I bet he’d fit in well with this crowd.
LOL!
@osano-whoa
I definitely agree. From almost two years of reading comments on this board I've come to the conclusion he's probably rich, (splits time between NY and Miami) quite intelligent, and reasonably down to earth. I bet he'd fit in well with this crowd.
Chandler has a tendency to pick up quick early fouls just like Perk. I believe their drop off after him is much greater than ours. I look for a couple early posts to Perk just to see if we can pick up some cheap ones. That could really effect the games I believe. We need to go full athleticism attack the rim with abandon and get their bigs in trouble. We have the ability to run it down teams throats, and this series is a perfect opportunity to.
justin :
Ozarkhick :@justin
Didn’t you say you were going to make a game if we made the conference finals?
I won’t be able to make one this weekend but if we win one of the first two games I’ll go to a clinching game six.
If you make it out then we need to have some sort of Daily Thunder gathering so we can all meet the fabled Justin.
Ozarkhick :@justin
Didn’t you say you were going to make a game if we made the conference finals?
I won't be able to make one this weekend but if we win one of the first two games I'll go to a clinching game six.
can someone please make a upside down horse head shirt for me to buy
thanks
When it comes to offense, every day is a bad day for Thabo.
Naz has good and bad days. Guess that comes with old age. What Sefs and Cooks excuse?
@justin
Didn't you say you were going to make a game if we made the conference finals?
@Joshua G
Their salaries are eerily similar
6,900,000- Haywood
6,883,800- Nazr
@justin
After you said that, I pretty much agreed about Haywood. But in looking at stats cube, I would actually move him lower, at least in relation to Nazr.
http://www.nba.com/statscube/player-vs-player.html#Brendan-Haywood-vs-Nazr-Mohammed|2217,1737;season=r
He's been terrible this year. Exhibit A for getting rid of guaranteed contracts. He played pretty good last year in a contract year and has just sucked since then.
okc baby :
Sef at 13 is laughable
Sef is 20 on that list...to put him ahead of Maynor is a sin.
It was a quick list, so most of it was off the top of my head. I basically ranked the players within their own team and then compared them across to the other team. That's probably why Sef is so low. I think it's safe to say he's the 7th best player on our team. As to where he fits when compared to those above him from Dallas (Barea, Marion), I'll agree it's debatable. But of course, it's hard to compare a pure defensive player (Sef) against a pure offensive player (Barea).
As for Terry, I place considerable stock in the fact that he's been the second best player on a team that consistently wins 50+ games. That has to count for something. He definitely is very streaky himself and way too cocky, but Harden is pretty inconsistent.