Via Ken Berger of CBSSports.com:
NBA players association chief Billy Hunter on Wednesday assailed the owners’ latest collective bargaining proposal and said he is prepared for owners to vote on a lockout at next Tuesday’s Board of Governors meeting in Dallas.
“Their demand is gargantuan and we just can’t meet it,” Hunter told reporters at the Manhattan hotel where players are staying for crucial meetings and draft-related activities this week.
A day after commissioner David Stern seized control of the message by disclosing details of the owners’ latest proposal, Hunter gathered reporters in an effort to respond and “set the record straight,” he said. At the meeting, also attended by union president Derek Fisher of the Lakers, executive committee member Maurice Evans of the Wizards and union staff, Hunter said the owners’ latest proposal would cost the players $8.2 billion over 10 years compared to the current system and $7 billion compared to the players’ standing offer.
“Under their proposal, over five or six years, they would reap a profit of over $1.8 billion after expenses – after their alleged expenses,” Hunter said.
Hunter and Fisher also clarified a point that was lost after Tuesday’s bargaining session: As part of their proposal to guarantee the players $2 billion in salary and benefits per year during their 10-year proposal, owners are seeking to keep the $160 million in escrow money withheld from players’ paychecks for the 2010-11 season. Eight percent of player salaries is withheld under the current agreement and returned each August to ensure that players ultimately wind up with 57 percent of basketball-related income (BRI).
“That’s money that players have already earned, worked for this past season,” Fisher said. “That’s off the table, as far as we’re concerned. To me, it speaks to the arrogance that they feel in approaching us with their proposal, to be able to go back and reach for those dollars.”
Fisher also assailed Stern’s characterization of a new cap system verbally proposed by owners as a “flex cap,” with a $62 million target per team and an undetermined maximum and minimum.
“We view that as just a total distortion of reality,” Fisher said. “It’s not a flexible cap, it’s a hard cap. … It’s flexible as long as you’re below what the hard level is.”
In terms of this keeping $160 million escrow thing, Nazr Mohammed chimed in on that. “Hell no!” he tweeted.
Yeah, not looking so good anymore. As far apart as ever. Bummer.
Kemba Walker and Marcus Thornton on our second unit....sooo dreamy
Who would we really want at 7? Walker? Is teh Valacinious angle correct?
Or Thornton and Casspi?
Perhaps a deal with the Kings:
Maynor
Our 24th, (Do we still have the Clips 1st rounder or did we trade that?)
Mullens
Cook? Thabo? Nate?
for
Kings 7th
Thronton
Whiteside?
I dont like trading maynor for an unproven pick in a weak draft. he is key to the thunder, much needed as russ tends to go hero mode. hes our best distributerand I dont faith in mate or royal to play that role. we should let him work his a** off next season to get a big contract, so if we do trade him we get more than just a pick
Were talking to the Kings at 7? If so, I want Thornton and or Whiteside involved in that deal, as long as it doesnt involve our big 4, and though I dont think hes untouchable, I want to give Aldrich at least another year. I think he could be a great defensive center
@ Mark!
Both he and Honeycutt have Thabo replacement written on them, I do, however, believe we could nab Butler early in the second if we could score a pick there for Nate or Mullens or buy the damn thing like someone suggested
I'm still pulling for Jimmy Butler. He has Thabo replacement written all over him.
@ Crow
Revenue sharing is the biggest issue not being discussed; as a result, any proposed solution focusing on the players will be flawed. For example...
Team A makes $1000 and Team B makes $500. Total BRI = $1500. 50% split of BRI $750, or $375 each. This represents 37.5% of Team A's individual BRI but it represents 75% of Team B's BRI.
Very simplified of course. The small market (low individual BRI) teams are complaining that the current system is not viable/profitable. The large market (high individual BRI) teams are driving the discussion toward lowering player salaries to fix this issue; they certainly don't want to institute a more complete/equitable revenue sharing system than what is currently in place. Dolan, Buss, Sterling, etc. want to keep that Brinks truck rolling in their direction.
This issue is why we've seen countervailing offers from the owners, i.e. lower the cap but introduce an "amnesty" clause that would allow each team to waive a player's salary off their cap even though they still pay it. So... lower the cap to help the poor teams but create a bargaining framework where every agent knows each team can waive a large contract from their cap?
That doesn't help fix the problem, it just allows the large market owners to smokescreen the issue (players fault) while maintaining their ability to spend more money and still be more profitable.
I'm not suggesting the players compensation can't be adjusted... it's just extremely difficult to start there before a more even revenue sharing system is in place.
How about maynor and mullens for oden and there rst rounder? They want a pg
sammasaaron :Chad Ford reports that OKC is shopping Maynor for a lottery pick, presumably to snag Valanciunas:
“Is Thunder point guard Eric Maynor worth a lottery pick? Sources say the Thunder have been quietly gauging interest in Maynor over the last few days in an attempt to move up into the top half of the draft. They’ve spoken to the Kings (No. 7) and Bobcats (No. 9) in particular in the last few days.
Maynor was the 20th pick in the 2009 draft, which was one of the most loaded point guard drafts ever. With so few quality point guards on the board this year, would a team covet him more than Kemba Walker or Jimmer Fredette?
Who are the Thunder after? Like a lot of teams, it seems they are in hot pursuit of Lithuanian big man Jonas Valanciunas.”
It would take more than Maynor to get high enough to get Valanciunas. Step one would be the trade Maynor to get into the mid to late-lottery. Then we'd probably have to make a 2nd trade involving our #24 pick to get up to #4. Or we'd have to give up another asset like Aldrich or Mullens or something.
I like the idea and don't really mind trading Maynor, I just think it's highly unlikely that everything will fall perfectly into place to land Valanciunas.
If we do trade Maynor though and don't draft or sign a PG, does that mean Nate Robinson becomes our backup PG?
@ MrBigDus
not that it matters much for the sake of this arguement, but inflation is a product of the FED, not the founding fathers (FED was started in 1913). the founding fathers believed in a monetary system based on the dollar being exchanged against gold at a consistent rate, thereby linking money supply to somthing real and measurable. it was only after we left the gold standard in the 30's that the inflation started really happening, up until that point the dollar had been getting more valueable over its history.
Doug Gottlieb yesterday released a list of his Top 30 players in the draft. Here are the players who realistically, the Thunder could get at #24, and his comments on them.
18. Justin Harper, Richmond
He's a legit NBA 3 in terms of size, skill and length, and also has something NBA scouts love -- basketball DNA. His dad was a great player at Canisius. Justin can play some finesse 4 as well, but he is not a good man-to-man defender because his college team ran a lot of matchup zone.
19. Norris Cole, Cleveland State
Probably the best point guard in the draft. Cole did it all Cleveland State last season, and his ability to score while running a team separates him. He's stepping up in level of play, but his high ball screen game is a perfect fit for the league.
20. Donatas Motiejunas, Lithuania (Benneton)
He's a legit 7-footer who can score at the low block. He's not a rebounder out of his zone and will struggle to defend NBA quickness if he matches up with a better athlete or is coming off a ball screen. Still, he has a ton of high-level experience and should stick as a likely starter or the first big off the bench.
21. Kyle Singler, Duke
Not a great athlete but tough, skilled and will make a team better. Singler is the Tyler Hansbrough of this draft. You will get a ton out of him in a stretch with back-to-back games or other contests some players will take off. He's a solid pick for a team not in need of an upside player and could have a similar career to fellow Duke alum Shane Battier.
22. Charles Jenkins, Hofstra
A scoring point guard from Hofstra who is bigger and may be a better NBA backup/combo guard than Kemba Walker based on his size, shooting and strength. On the other hand, he does not have great point guard skills and is smallish to play the 2.
23. Nikola Mirotic, Montenegro (Real Madrid - Spain)
Huge shooting wing with big-time experience in the Spanish ACB league. Contract issues dropped his stock, but at just 20 years old, he can pass, shoot and move on the offensive end of the floor. Like Valanciunas, he might have more value this year with the possibility of a lockout.
24. Jordan Hamilton, Texas
He's a scoring 3 who rebounds well and has a deceptive first step a la Paul Pierce. He can score at the block and out to the 3-point line, through he mostly goes right. Can become very selfish and would be better served to be on a good team with veterans in order to clean up some bad habits.
25. Trey Thompkins, Georgia
Thompkins is enormous and has some game from the high post as well. He never truly dominated in college but also never played with great guards. He's put on some weight in the past and a lockout is not a good thing for guys who "blow up," but he has toughness, skill and good hands, which make him a tough call.
26. Reggie Jackson, Boston College
A scoring guard who is learning to be a point guard. If he lands with a team on which he is not asked to create or run things, he should be a very solid pick.
27. Tyler Honeycutt, UCLA
Has a very high ceiling as an NBA 3, but is more Austin Daye than Tayshaun Prince. Best served to play on a team that runs rather than a halfcourt team. He must work on his body.
28. Chandler Parsons, Florida
Like Honeycutt, he will disappear in a heartbeat, as he did in Florida's Elite Eight loss to Butler, but plays as close to a European type of game as anyone in college hoops. He makes others better, but needs to get stronger.
29. Markieff Morris, Kansas
A solid rebounder and scorer, but a bit small to play the 4. He should adjust well to coming off the bench in the league, as he has done that in college as well. That is actually a plus. Markieff seems to have more quality basketball in him and he is just scratching the surface of his potential. But like his brother, he could have some separation anxiety.
30. Marshon Brooks, Providence
Brooks is a stud scoring wing who is long and athletic. He has a Kobe-light type of game -- though he has no position and plays no defense. Still, off the bench he can give you points. Has a reputation as a stats guy, not a team guy.
haha, one comment too late.
Chad Ford reports that OKC is shopping Maynor for a lottery pick, presumably to snag Valanciunas:
"Is Thunder point guard Eric Maynor worth a lottery pick? Sources say the Thunder have been quietly gauging interest in Maynor over the last few days in an attempt to move up into the top half of the draft. They've spoken to the Kings (No. 7) and Bobcats (No. 9) in particular in the last few days.
Maynor was the 20th pick in the 2009 draft, which was one of the most loaded point guard drafts ever. With so few quality point guards on the board this year, would a team covet him more than Kemba Walker or Jimmer Fredette?
Who are the Thunder after? Like a lot of teams, it seems they are in hot pursuit of Lithuanian big man Jonas Valanciunas."
http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/30662/thunder-looking-to-deal-maynor-to-move-up
Yes please. Just so I dont have to listen to irrational maynor love anymore.
Taking anoter stab at what the deal could or should include:
I'd probably start with the current CBA,
reduce the MLE by $1 - 1.5 million,
reduce year to year raises to 5% or eliminate entirely,
make raises over $250,000 be tied to performance incentives,
prohibit raises after the 7th year in the league,
set up a revenue-sharing plan based on 15-20% of local TV contracts which would be used exclusively to finance the salaries of players over the league average and / or improvements in team business operations (no owners pocketing the money),
everybody gets some payback, the amount determined by a formula that rewards team revenue growth, attendance, W-L record but also recognizes market size and adjusts available resources to somewhat compensate for that,
moves the league toward a 50-50 basketball related revenue split over 3-5 years but also rewards owners with 55-60% pf any future revenue growth above 3-5% annual growth,
allows any trade that doesn't violate the league minimum salary requirement, increases the luxury tax on increase over the luxury tax line caused by a trade by 50-100%.
4 year max contract length except for 1 franchise deal that can be up to 6 years.
there probably would be more but maybe I'll get to those ideas later.
That kid was on Americas got talent
So this doesn't have anything to do with this, but something to take your mind off of the doom and gloom of player-owner negotiations, the kid in this Chris Brown video that says "Man I'm bored!" is the kid that acted in Serge's dunk contest routine.
Take a look...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mC2ixOAivA
@ MrBigDus
You're right about the inflation aspect, but you're paying for the talent involved, not the price of the economy. Some may think James is the best all around player in the game right now (although I personally dont think he's the best even on his team) and deserves top dollar, but do you honestly think one man should have a contract for $110 Million dollars over a six year period? It's not just the NBA, Sam Bradford signed a $78 Million dollar as a rookie! Dont get me wrong, they should get paid, but these figures are getting ridiculous. Compare that to the average American, who is struggling to "feed the family" ala Latrell Sprewell. That's all I am saying in my argument.
@monkeyonx
There is one glaring problem in your argument: Inflation.
Let's talk about the issue of salaries. Jordan is and will always be a better player than Lebron, but Jordan played when a gallon of gas was only $.69-$1.20. Now it's $3-$4 a gallon. Lebron has to be paid more because things cost more. LeBron's market value is higher because he can bring wins, which is the only thing an owner needs to profit. That's not anyone's fault. Blame the founding fathers for our economic system.
There was going to be a lockout no matter what.
Will the sides remain civil, continue negotiating, and try to get a deal done without missing any games was always the big question.
No doubt about it, I think there will be a lockout, and that will only cheat the fans. I remember the last lockout that happened, and I was a bit bitter about it. I can understand why the players feel cheated in this current CBA, as the game is made of the Players. They are the talent, and they are the product; At the same time, the owners are losing money by these massive contracts that are only increasing annually. For example: Lebron James is not better than Jordan is/was, but James will probably make more in his career (outside of endorsements) than Jordan did. The odd thing, the owners created this problem, by feeding the massive contracts to the players, and now they are reaping what they sow. Do I believe the Escrow fund should go to the owners, hell no. That is money they have already earned, and should be rightfully returned to the players.
The escrow feels like a sound bite that seems worse than it is. The purpose of the escrow is to ensure that players do not receive more than the predetermined % of BRI.
@LarryCoon: To complaint about owners wanting to keep entire $160M escrow fund, I should point out that last season the owners got $170.2M of the $191.8M anyway, with the players keeping $21.6M, and that's with 9% being withheld. This year the withholding dropped to 8%, so I'm guessing the owners would have kept the entire amount anyway.
That $160 million escrow, that's another bargaining chip that the owners just put on the table. Then they'll come back and say, "Okay, we'll let you keep the escrow money, but we want.....". And the negotiations will continue.
Bummer
Disappointing, but, yeah, the offer as it was presented yesterday sounded too good to be true.