Daily Thunder.com Under new CBA, Westbrook could make more than Durant

Keith00

The max contract issues have really thrown a wrench into how the team team will need to move forward. But, I think the other thing we are missing is just how important that new harsher tax (plus repeat offender levy) will affect the market value of players. The best players will still always out-perform a max contract. But, now teams get hit harder and harder for giving David Lee a near max, or Carlos Boozer a near max.

I'm not sure it happens right away, but market forces should literally tie the hands of many GMs. The biggest reason many players are given oversized contracts is because teams realize that if they don't give out the contract, someone else will. That may no longer be the case. Westbrook, for instance, may be in line to make 30% of the cap by next year. That's well and good as a possibility, but would any other team in the league really make that plunge. Is there a team out there that looks at Russ and says, "We can scrap our current plan and build entirely around him." I just don't see it. Russ is a great player, high usage, passably efficient, and contributes in a lot of ways. But there is no way Russ can carry a team on his back night in and night out. Given the new monetary structure in place, that has to be GUARANTEED from someone making 30% of your cap.

With the one-player-only at the max stipulation, this is only compounded. Fewer teams are going to be in the tax than ever, and even the big markets won't be able to float a 3.25-1 dollar tax at their current payrolls. Max players may finally become what the max was designed for - top players only.

Daniel Hawaii

@Keith00 Russ is incredibly close to Derrick Rose statistically, and who knows, it's not completely out of the realm of possibiity that he posts better stats than Rose this season. So if the Bulls can build their entire team around Rose, why wouldn't another team build their roster around a very similar player in Westbrook? I really hope this doesn't happen, but I'm actually very worried that Russ won't sign an extension on Dec. 9th to hold out for a max deal next Summer.

walker

I think we gone be really good. Serge playing over seas'Perk slim and trim.We got three allstars.This is Hardens breakout year

gnaygg

Contrary to some people beliefs, amnesty clause can benefit Thunder. According to this http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/sfl-miami-heat-nba-lockout-s112711,0,4202541.story , Thunder may have a chance to bid for Okur and say... Rashard Lewis contracts(or BRoy), after do amnesty on Nate and renounce DCook (we can resign Cook with room exception). We will have 2 big man who can score and strech the floor. The good thing is Okur and Lewis contract dont prevent us to resign Harden and Ibaka!

minks77

@gnaygg you have 2 big men who can score and stretch the floor? Where? When did Serge lock down a jumper? Nick? Really? Not Etan, not Perk... Not trying to be an arse but who are these 2 big men? Lewis, if Washington cut him and if OKC picks him up, is 6'10" but plays more 3 and definitely not a big man gamer, and Okur (if cut, signed) has limited range. Am I missing something?

Hermit

@minks77 @gnaygg Lewis was a stretch four with the Magic. He can't rebound and his only scoring ability is from three. When teams run him off the three pt line, he becomes worthless. He has no post game.

minks77

@gnaygg @Hermit @minks77 um, if u r asking me if I approve of okur then I have to say no. Look at the past 4 years: 10, 10, 9, 69 games missed. If u are so dead set on a stretch center why not look to someone like Andrea bargnani. He's younger, healthier, better scorer but a slightly worse rebounder. Terrible help d, but alongside serge or perk he'd do ok.

Nene would look great in OKC blue.

gnaygg

@Hermit @minks77 So Okur is approved, Minks? As for Lewis, it is low risk high reward if we can get him for 2 years at 3-4 M per. Better than paying $ 4.5 for Nate. Lewis can provide offense, as some people has said, we need offense.

gnaygg

@minks77 Really? Check Magic Lakers final 2 years ago, Lewis were Magic's leading scorer for 3 out of 5 games. And was he Magic's PF or Turkoglu? Okur can average 13ppg or more if healthy.

Hermit

@gnaygg @minks77 And oh yeah , the reason the Magic over paid for Lewis, was because they had Howard. They wanted four three point shooters to play with Howard, so defenses could not collapse on Howard. Lewis was a good fit for the Magic, for a while, until as I said, they started running him off the three.

Unless you got a Dwight Howard, Lewis is not very valuable.

minks77

@gnaygg Key words: "2 years ago"

The last thing this thunder team needs are soft jump shooting tall guys with rapidly declining skill sets and serious injury concerns. Not to mention they don't begin to address the need of a low post game and have never been known as "lock down" defenders.

What do they bring to the table the Thunder don't already excel at? Where do the help you beat Dallas? Jump Shots weren't the problem.

Joe_

@gnaygg Nice find on the Article. It's pretty interesting that the league installed a provision to preclude the Lakers, Heat etc from swooping in and getting the amnestied players. Awesome. However, I can't be sure we are under the cap. From what I understand, Presti used all of the money we had left under the cap for Collisons extension last year. And when you add Reggie Jacksons salary cap hold, and Daequan's Cap hold, I am not sure if we are under. We are very close.

One thing, Robert Vaden counted against our cap last year. I doubt he will make the club this year so that will be gone, but that would probably just offset Jacksons salary. One site I looked at made it seem we were just pennies over, another made it seem like we were a few million below. IDK>

Joe_

@gnaygg I bet we Amnesty little Nate though.

Joe_

@Keith00 @JimboSlice @Hermit @gnaygg

Yaaaaaayy. We're finally back to having substantive basketball discussion here!!!

Keith00

@Joe_@JimboSlice @Hermit @gnaygg I don't expect him to have value greater than his expiring contract around the league. Yes, he can be a spark off the bench, but even that skill is overrated. He's been primarily at or below league average efficiency, despite never being the focus of a defense. His defense is laughable, and he really has no PG skills. Further, he's not a good outside shooter. He had one good half season from 3, and that's it.

There is a reason he was thrown into the Jeff Green trade, Boston didn't want to pay him anymore. If he failed in Boston and can't even get backup minutes in OKC, what team would have the desire to trade anything of value for him?

Joe_

@JimboSlice @Hermit @gnaygg It's been 3 seasons since he was a net positive adjusted +/- player. So he is still young and has it in him to be a decent player, but he's been traded the last two seasons, to the Celts, and then to us, and that has probably messed with his development. I hope good things for him though. He seems like a popular guy in the clubhouse.

Hermit

@Joe_@JimboSlice @gnaygg Howard Beck in NYT's , quotes exec saying there may only be three or so amnesty players

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/sports/basketball/each-nba-team-can-waive-one-bad-contract.html?ref=basketball

“I don’t think there will be very many at all,” said one team executive, who asked to remain anonymous while the lockout remains in effect.

At most, three to six teams will take advantage of the amnesty clause this year, the executive said — a view that was echoed by others around the league. The reasons are varied and complicated.

Joe_

@JimboSlice @Hermit @gnaygg A big article today in the LA times about how the Lakers are scouring the likely amnestied players and how bad they need a PG. I guess Nate is somewhat of a PG. He's not any worse than Baron Davis I guess.

TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard

1 Like

@Joe_@Hermit @gnaygg I disagree with his value being as low as we see it in OKC. Before his stint here, he was one of the more productive bench players in the league in both NY and Boston. He was a gunner, yes, but a dang good one.

One thing that has worried me though is that he has looked very out of shape the times I've seen him, and that may effect his stock. But plenty teams would be willing to trade for an expiring contract who can provide immediate help from the bench, as well as put a few extra butts in the seats.

Hermit

@Joe_@gnaygg I thought he was an expiring contract ? That may have value to someone, though I doubt Presti takes any contract back for him. Maybe a draft pick.

Joe_

@Hermit @gnaygg I can see the value of trading him, but I don't think Nate really has much value in the league. Really, he's a gunner, and definitely not a starter imo. So what can you get for him? And even more, what do we need. His roster spot is number 15, the max, so it would have to be one for one...

Then again, Presti is a wizard. So we will have to see I guess.

Hermit

@Joe_@gnaygg I would think they trade him for something, rather than just cut him loose.

Daniel Hawaii

@gnaygg I REALLY like the idea of using the new "Room Exception" on Daequan Cook. The only problem there is if another team would give him an actual contract that's worth more than the 2-year, $2.5 million/year deal that is the "Room Exception" and also whether he would accept it. That would actually represent a pay decrease from the $3.1 million Cook is supposed to make this year, via his qualifying offer.

Daniel Hawaii

You know what I just thought of that's very scary and very possible? Westbrook's agent could advise Russ to NOT sign an extension on Dec. 9th, knowing full well that it won't be for the max. Then, all Russ would have to do is make an All-NBA team again this season and NEXT year, he'll be a free agent and eligible for the max. It's a little risky for Russ, because if he gets a career-ending injury, he loses the security of a guaranteed 4-year extension, but it could end up paying off big time if some other team next year decides he's worth the max and offers it to him. THIS COULD BE BAD!

Perk has a lot of value to our team

KD could tell Presti that he deserves a designated player extension and they'll change his existing contract? That sucks.

Daniel Hawaii

@diddoff Would KD even be allowed to do that? Technically, he's not on his rookie deal anymore, since he signed an extension last Summer. So I don't think he can ask for an extension on his extension. (Is that what you mean?)

But if KD could do it, that WOULD suck. I don't know if I would do it if I were Presti. He's already got him locked him up until 2016 for lower than what Derrick Rose is going to make. You do however risk pissing KD off and give him a reason to bolt once his contract is up. I just hope KD isn't greedy and doesn't ask for this (if he's even allowed too).

Perk has a lot of value to our team

@Daniel Hawaii Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/sports/basketball/several-issues-nba-players-wouldnt-concede-in-labor-negotiations.html?_r=1&src=tp

Daniel Hawaii

@diddoff Ahh, I see. KD's extension hasn't taken effect yet, thus he can technically ask for the "new" max-contract extension and make a lot more money. KD would be stupid not to ask for it. That's going to be a tough decision for Presti. He could say no since he's already got Durant locked up for 5 years. But again, that could end up pissing KD off and he could walk in 2016. My guess would be that Presti gives Durant whatever he wants, which would keep him happy and hopefully keep him in OKC for his entire career. That extra $3 million/year is going to cost us salary cap-wise though, and the dream of acquiring some type of quality free agent will probably be out the window (unless they use the mid-level exception). Durant's salary would go from $13.6 million this season to probably around $17 million, depending on what the final salary cap figure is.

MartzMimic

3 Like

I think I'm almost as glad to see everyone back here as I was to hear about the agreement.

Joe_

@MartzMimic I agree. Hi Martz!!!!

BirdTerrifier

@Joe_@MartzMimic I couldn't handle coming on here during the lockout so I'm extremely excited to be back.

Joe_

@Jax Raging Bile Duct @BirdTerrifier I did that. In fact, I even had an email back and forth with LIvefyre tech support. The problem is that the username JOE is taken? Whateva!

Thanks anyway.

BirdTerrifier

@Jax Raging Bile Duct I've made my peace. I also think that "Jax Raging Bile Duct" is a little more unique than Chas.

Jax Raging Bile Duct

@BirdTerrifier @Joe_ Click on your names, it opens up your livefyre account. Find the 'settings' link at the top of the screen, and you can then change your username.

At least... it worked for me anyway.

BirdTerrifier

@Joe_ It is indeed a trifling hangup besides this is my twitter handle so I'll be okay.

Joe_

@BirdTerrifier @MartzMimic Hey Chas. I had the same problem. Now, instead of JOE, I am JOE_ Oh well right? You have to deal with the little vagaries of life.

BirdTerrifier

@Joe_@MartzMimic Of course, back then I was posting under "Chas". Don't know how to get that back though.

TempBoy Brandon

1 Like

Shane Battier is getting a ton of tweets from Thunder (and Grizz, Heat and Rockets) fans for him to sign with us. Then KD sent a tweet to Battier that asked him how he was doing, what jersey size he wanted and if he still wanted #31 for his jersey. :D

C-Wil

@TempBoy Brandon I saw that, think he can coax Battier to come on down here? It'd be one less dude in KD's way :P

C-Wil

@TempBoy Brandon btw isn't 31 retired? Robert Swift's number????

Hermit

@TempBoy Brandon Nick tweeted something bout Battier before the Duke / KU game, that if Duke lost he would have to sign with Thunder.

Daniel Hawaii

Ziller just posted an update to his original post (at the bottom) that Westbrook WOULD NOT be affected. I just read the entire CBA (thanks to Chad Ford who posted a link to it on Twitter) and I agree with this.

Russell CANNOT get a max salary this year. A new provision is in there that the only players that can make the MAX are 1) players who have been named to the All-NBA teams TWICE. (Russ only once). 2) players who have been named All-Star game starters TWICE (Russ never a starter) 3) players who have been named NBA MVP (therefore D. Rose can get MAX, but not Russ.)

So, there's no way Sam Presti will need to offer Russ a max contract on Dec. 9th. Whew. Crisis averted.

Hermit

1 Like

@Daniel Hawaii Ziller is trying too hard to be first to say something.

Perk has a lot of value to our team

@Daniel Hawaii Thank you! :-D

Daniel Hawaii

@diddoff You're welcome! I see you essentially posted the same thing as me below. One thing that's still not clear to me after reading the CBA is what the maximum Russell IS entitled to. Max contract players can make 30 percent of the team's salary cap. But is there a restriction on the 2nd highest-paid player on a team? If there isn't, I wouldn't put it past some agents to try and force GMs to offer their player a max deal...minus $1 dollar...or something sneaky like that. But assuming that's not allowed (and it shouldn't be), the good news is now GMs like Presti won't feel obligated to give All-Star, but not SUPERSTAR players the max.

By the way, if you want to read the full CBA, it's here: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B_JqVMjKAfLYNzU3YzVlNDAtMDBlOS00Y2UwLWE5ZTItM2RkZTdjN2FmMzI4&hl=en_US

Daniel Hawaii

Well, if that link didn't work for you, here's another one: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/sam_amick/11/26/tentative.deal/index.html

Perk has a lot of value to our team

"...it will come into play for Derrick Rose, Kevin Love and Russell Westbrook, each of whom have finished three seasons and have All-Star appearances on their resumes."

I read the tentative agreement and if I'm not totally wrong the players have to be named All-Star starters.

So Russ becomes eligible at december 9th and he only has one All-NBA appearance. If Presti then offers him a contract he won't be paid higher than KD. Right?

Daniel Hawaii

@diddoff Correct! Russell cannot be offered a max contract. One thing I did find interesting though... players signing extensions to their rookie deals can only sign for a max of 4 more years, EXCEPT for 1 designated player PER TEAM that can sign for 5 more years. That means Presti will have to choose between Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka as to WHICH guy he's going to "designate" our 5-year player. I assume it'll be Russ, but who knows. The other 2 guys will only get 4-year extensions (provided of course, they sign extensions).

Perk has a lot of value to our team

@Daniel Hawaii

"Maximum of 4 new years for rookie extensions (except maximum of 5 new years for a maximum-salary Designated Player rookie extension ...)"

So only maximum rookies like Rose could receive a five year contract. That means Russ can get max. 4 years and Ibaka or Harden only could be designated if they meet one of the criterias.

Daniel Hawaii

@diddoff You're right. Russ can't get a max deal, so he can't get a 5-year extension, only 4 years. Same for James and Serge, unless one of them wins the MVP this season! Therefore, we will only be able to offer Russ, James and Serge 4-year extensions, not 5 (like KD got). This means KD and Russ will be free agents at the same time in the Summer of 2016.

Under new CBA, Westbrook could make more than Durant

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