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Should James Harden start?

by J.G. Marking on December 12, 2011 at 12:00 pm 138 Comments

Ronald Martinez/NBAE/Getty Images

Now that training camp has officially begun for the Thunder, it is only natural that we would all immediately jump into our coaching armchairs and start getting down to the nitty gritty aspects of what decisions could make the most impact on the coming year. You know, the calculations and determinations that sparked rich debate last year and will undoubtedly spark even more debate before the tip-off of the 2011-2012 Oklahoma City Thunder season, especially the biggest powder keg of them all…

Can Royal Ivey raise his bench celebrations to the level of Nate Robinson’s All-Star machinations?

Okay, so maybe I’m the only one that thinks this could be a serious factor for the Thunder’s success this year, so let’s just hammer out if James Harden should start over Thabo Sefolosha.

Yes. Yes, he should.

But since I know you’re going to want some kind of reasoning behind such a quick and concise answer, let’s dive into why the most important statistics (in my opinion) absolutely leave no doubt whatsoever that James Harden has to, surely, for the love of all that is holy, start for the Thunder this season.

Now before we just leap headfirst into this, I’d like to point out that I understand the two most popular arguments for why Thabo should stay in the starting lineup: Continuity with the shortened training camp and crammed schedule, and, the second unit/bench needs some scoring punch and someone to run the offense through.

Like I said, I understand those perspectives 100%. I just don’t agree with them at all.

First off, continuity would really only be an issue if A) Harden was not entering his third year with the team and had never, ever started a game or played with the other four starters, and B) There were significant changes in offensive scheme (ha!) or additions to the roster. Since neither of those two factors come into play AT ALL, I feel safe in saying that the Thunder’s continuity should face no real danger by moving Harden into the starting lineup.

Secondly, and the argument that seems to grip more individuals and gain traction, is that the Thunder need some scoring punch when the second unit is on the floor. Obviously, I agree with that, just like I agree that the sun is bright and water is wet. What I don’t agree with is that the inclusion of James Harden in the starting lineup equals the second unit having absolutely no scorer on the floor with them or any individual to run the offense through during that time span (end of first quarter into middle of second quarter), but we’ll touch on that a bit later.

To kick start this all off, let’s take a look at how the five-man units with the two potential starting SG’s did last year for the Thunder, focusing primarily on the statistics that I feel are most important to a starting unit: minutes played together, the unit’s offensive points scored per possession, defensive points allowed per possession, and winning percentage (big thanks to 82games.com).

Unit

Min

Off

Def

Win%

 Westbrook-Sefolosha-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

270.7

1.05

0.99

56.2

 Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

90.0

1.12 

1.02

61.5

This look into the value of Harden and Thabo playing with the other starters speaks volumes (small sample sizes aside, especially the minutes part, which kind of makes me hurt inside that Harden only got 90 minutes with the starters) about the gap that has developed between Harden and Thabo regarding their overall impact while on the floor for the Thunder (and it becomes even more concrete when you look at them without the lens of the starting unit, which we’ll get to in a few paragraphs).

The only real argument for keeping Sefolosha in the starting unit based on what he brings to the unit is his value as a defensive stopper. However these statistics show that his value is literally only half as valuable as a defensive stopper for the team as Harden’s value is to the Thunder as a scorer, since the Thunder only give up .03 points less with Thabo on the floor than when Harden is on, yet they score more than twice that at .07 more points with Harden on the floor than with Thabo.

And not only that, but if you calculate the +/- differential of points scored minus points allowed, Thabo gives the Thunder a net positive of .06 when paired with the other starters, whereas Harden gives them a full 10% (.10) net positive.

But maybe Thabo contributes more overall as an individual when it comes to +/- than this five-man unit graph is showing, because since Thabo has been selected to the All-NBA Defense Second Team, surely his defensive stopping ability is comparable to Harden’s offensive ability overall. I mean, it’s not like Harden’s defensive ability is closer to Thabo’s than Thabo’s offensive ability is light years behind Harden’s, right? I mean there’s just no way that there can be that big of a difference between them in net points scored/allowed, right?

Player

Min

+/-

Net48

Harden

54%

+205

+4.5

Sefolosha

51%

+102 

+2.4

Oh. I feel like I should look away, but I…can’t…help myself.

What was beyond clear in the second half of last year, that Harden’s defense has in fact caught up very much so to Thabo’s while Thabo’s offense is still LIGHT YEARS behind Harden’s in all respects, is absolutely crystal clear given the +/- statistics presented.

That’s why Harden has DOUBLE the positive +/- Thabo has, that’s why Harden brings a +4.5 points per 48 minutes to Thabo’s +2.4. And I’m sorry, don’t you think someone who posts nearly twice the differential that the incumbent starter is putting up should get a heck of a lot more minutes than a measly .03 percent more?

It's the presence of Kevin Durant alongside the bench players that pretty much proves the entire point that the second unit will/can have a scoring punch even if James Harden starts. How so?

3% more minutes?!  It’s things like this that make so many DT commenters argue about Scott Brooks, but don’t worry, we’re not going to go there because it won’t be necessary. Because now that we have seen just how unbelievably more valuable to the Thunder James Harden’s minutes and time with the starters are compared to Thabo’s (again, I think Thabo has value to this franchise, just, you know, about half as much as Harden does unless extremely specific situations present themselves), let’s talk about how the substitution pattern can make it unbelievably easy for the Thunder to always have a scorer and offensive linchpin on the floor at all times with James Harden starting.

Royce touched upon this topic here and made some excellent points, but I’m going to disagree with him in the idea that minutes will be/should be cut down for Durant, Westbrook and Harden. The main reason being that I’m personally upset with Royce on many levels (just kidding), the actual reasons are that I don’t think that trio is going to allow Brooks to cut their minutes that much and will be harping in his ear as often as possible to get back into the game, but also because I believe their young legs and the Thunder’s playing style/offensive “scheme” requires those three to all average a high number of minutes a game if they want to be successful and win games.

For the purpose of this substitution pattern and the regular season (and based off of last season’s minutes), we’ll go with 36 minutes for Westbrook, 36 minutes for Harden (yes, finally!) and 39 minutes for Durant. So remember that, because this becomes an absolutely critical component when this point comes up:

“But what will happen to our bench without Harden? No one else who can score plays with the second unit…”

Um, it’s at this point that I really feel like individuals are just intentionally trying to get me to have some kind of meltdown where that giant vein in my forehead finally bursts because it just can’t take any more.

The second unit happens to start the game (in the second quarter) playing with the best scorer in the ENTIRE league. His name is Kevin Durant. I don’t know how this fact gets overlooked in nearly every single debate I’ve ever seen on this, but it does, and I think I’m going to have to go take some Tylenol before I get worked up again…

Okay, that’s better.

It’s the presence of Kevin Durant alongside the bench players that pretty much proves the entire point that the second unit will/can have a scoring punch even if James Harden starts. How so?

Because any coach with half a brain (and let’s be honest, that’s not always the case in the NBA) with even a rudimentary knowledge of basketball knows that you stagger your substitutions to ensure that your 5 man unit on the floor is as balanced as possible on offense and defense, unless you are intentionally exploiting a weakness on the other team (for example, you go small ball to utilize a clear speed and shooting advantage that you have over a slower, lumbering team).

So therefore, it’s to be expected that if Harden starts, he’ll be averaging a heck of a lot more minutes than he did previously (and mercifully, Thabo will be getting a lot less…still love you, Thabo). Thus if Harden, Westbrook and Durant are all at least averaging 36, 36, and 39 minutes a game, that means that for an entire game the Thunder coaching staff only have to manage the substitions in such a way as to make sure that at least one of those three are on the court for a minuscule 12 minute (NBA games are 48 minutes) time gap (a 9 minute gap for Durant).

So, just for funsies, let’s give this a try:

3:00 mark in the first quarter, Harden sits, Thabo comes in. (Westbrook and Durant on the floor)

Start of second quarter, Westbrook sits, Maynor in. (Durant on the floor)

9:00 mark of the second quarter Durant sits, Harden in, Thabo shifts to SF or gets subbed out for Daequan Cook (Harden on the floor)

6:00 mark of second quarter, Westbrook in, Maynor out (Harden and Westbrook on the floor)

4:30 mark of second quarter, Durant in, Thabo/Daequan out (Harden, Westbrook, Durant on the floor)

Rinse and repeat in the second half.

 

All right, that seemed simple enough, but what did the minutes per game equal out to? Well, that substitution pattern gave 18 minutes of playing time in the first half to Harden and Westbrook, and 19.5 minutes to Durant, which totals out to a nice and neat 36 mpg for Harden and Westbrook, and 39 minutes per game for Durant, if you double it (two halves to an NBA game, after all).

What can not be overlooked, though, is the fact that not only is one of the best three offensive threats for the Thunder on the floor at all times, but two of the three are on the court for all but six minutes a half, twelve minutes a game! That sure seems like an awful lot of offensive scoring punch over a 48 minute time-span to me.

And Thabo still gets around 15-16 mpg (which is where a somewhat one-dimensional specialist should really be in terms of minutes), but maybe a bit more if Daequan isn’t hitting.

It’s this reality, that a simple and uncomplicated substitution pattern is all that is required for the Thunder to have an offensive punch on the floor at all times during a game, that leads me to the belief that there can only really be one argument made as to why Thabo Sefolosha should continue starting over James Harden. And it’s one that is not based on statistical value, overall impact, or any measurable basketball-related factor. But boy is it a popular one.

Change is scary.

And I agree with that. Changing what has worked, what has brought you to the Conference Finals, changing what you know and are comfortable with, is scary. But there’s something even more terrifying than changing what has brought you to a great level of success and achievement.

Not doing something that could push you beyond where you have been, to the place that you can go, to the very pinnacle of all that you have dared dream to achieve, because you were scared.

So unleash the beard. Give Westbrook the complimentary skill-set that made the Thunder draft Harden in the first place, and let’s not let the fear of the unknown, or the terror of trying something different, hold OKC back from becoming what their talent, hard work and dedication dictates that they can be…

Champions.

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Thunder S
Thunder S 5pts

My hope this year is Russ recommits to Defense and Harden gets more opportunities to handle in the offense w/ the starters. The sad reality is that w/o Harden we only have one guy of the starters who can really handle the ball.

TaoMaas
TaoMaas 5pts

The thing that jumped out at me in the stats that were quoted in the article was that, while James' individual rating is twice that of Thabo, that difference is almost totally negated when James plays with the first team, apparently. I love The Beard and think he's worthy of starting, but I wonder if he'll be as effective as everyone seems to think he'll be once he starts having to share the ball more with KD & Russ...instead of being the "go to" guy that he was on the 2nd team. I think the deciding factor is going to be how much chemistry James and Russ can develop together. We saw flashes last year that they could be something extraordinary. I'm hoping they find a way to do that on a nightly basis.

J G Marking
J G Marking 5pts

@TaoMaas The Thunder starting five scores twice the amount of points per possession differential with Harden as the defense gives up in points per possession with Thabo. Or in other words, there is no negating effect at all. Harden's offensive production in the starting five is double the defensive production that Thabo brings. Toss on an ALARMING 5.3% in improved win percentage, and there is just no way you can say that there is a "neglible difference" between the two players with the starting five.

Hermit
Hermit 5pts

@J G Marking@TaoMaas But Thabo is almost always defending one of the other teams best offensive players, as long as said player is a wing player. While that is not true for Harden, in fact, Harden spends a lot of minutes vrs the opponents second unit which impacts him both offensively and defensively.

Hollinger says Thabo defends the three better than the two, Harden does not have that versatility. Say the opposing teams best wing player is a three, if you start JH and KD, Then KD must defend the three.

ITs common for a reserve player to put up good numbers vrs the opposing teams' second units, then become a FA, get signed and put in a starting lineup and not do nearly as well.

Although in Harden's case, he played a lot of minutes in the playoffs vrs the other teams' starters.

Stats don't tell the whole story here, and especially defensive stats. There might be some substance to defensive team stats, but individual stats are weak. And that applies to almost every sport. Its very difficult to quantify individual defensive ability.

TaoMaas
TaoMaas 5pts

Regarding Harden playing in crunch time and the team being better, I seem to recall the Thunder blowing some major 4th quarter leads last year. Granted, one was because Harden WASN'T in there, but still. What worries me is that the James Harden that I see with the starters is not the same James Harden that I see with the second team. Maybe last year he was just taking a back seat to Russ and KD while trying to figure out how to fit in, whereas he felt more dominant when paired with Maynor, Collison, etc.. Or maybe the second team just has better ball movement, which allows James more room to operate. I'd love to give James a shot at starting. If it didn't work out as hoped..hey, go back to what was working before. But unfortunately, we don't seem to be able to shift gears that quickly. Or maybe it's not so unfortunate since there are plenty of other teams who would love to have had the Thunder's success, as well as their future prospects. Is it Christmas yet?

J G Marking
J G Marking 5pts

@Hermit@TaoMaas You listed team stats as being more important than individual stats. It was pointed out that the stats listed in the article were of the 5 man units, addressing and rebuking your individual/team stats point. You listed inequity of competition. It was pointed out that the competition Harden faced while with that 5 man unit was most assuredly equal to, if not greater, than the competition Thabo faced.And now, you are the one trying to change the parameters back to, "okay, but is the team better as a whole with Thabo playing the first 8 minutes of the game"...which has already been answered by multiple individuals on here regarding every relevant statistic from win %, to net point differential, to the starters being outscored by a full 9 POINTS in the playoffs (-9 differential) to the fact that there is always KD, RW or JH on the floor for the Thunder at one time last season, so there would always be an offensive scorer/focal point, and even to how, specifically, the Thunder operate as a 5 man unit, hands down better with James Harden than Thabo.

And then to top it all off, you try to "straw man" valid arguments that refute positions by skewing the parameters again by saying that crunch time minutes equal who should start (which is in no way what was ever argued) based off of one small snippet of one fourth quarter of one individual game dynamic, regarding Eric Maynor and Daequan Cook playing SOME crunch time minutes, neither of which are involved in the debate in any way, completely removing the actual content and context of the back-and-forth topics that have been discussed.

Which is to pretty much say, I think we've reached an impasse here to which discussion or the sharing of viewpoints can no longer serve a purpose towards a meaningful debate...but thanks for reading and commenting all the same! Definitely nice to have the NBA back. :)

And what would the DT be without never-ending arguments that everyone on here has absolutely no say or sway in regarding if they'll happen or not!

Hermit
Hermit 5pts

@J G Marking@TaoMaas Whoooaaa now, wait a minute.

You are changing the parameters now.

What this is about, is who should play the first 6 to 8 minutes of the first quarter.

That's all.

Because after that point , whoever Brooks has on the court will be evolve naturally depending upon many variables.

Harden played starter's minutes in the playoffs, 30 min to Thabo's 20.

And you don't have to write a masters thesis in statistics, to know that the team is offensively better with Harden on the court. That is obvious to everyone. But that's not the question, no one would argue that who had half a brain.

The question is whether the team as a whole is better with Thabo playing the first 8 minutes of the game.

Hey, I just watched the fourth qtr of game two vrs Dallas, by your reasoning, Maynor and DCook should be starting since they played in crunch time.

J G Marking
J G Marking 5pts

@Hermit@TaoMaas Keith00 kind of touched on this, but what you're overlooking or not considering is that the ONLY time Harden played with the other four starters was during crunch time minutes, and since a team always plays their best 5 man unit in crunch time, there is absolutely zero inequity of competition. That is why the 5 man unit statistical analysis was used.

In fact, the case could be made in numerous examples for Harden facing an even greater level of competition than Thabo did. Using your very own touted Dallas Mavericks analogy, the 5 man unit that Thabo faced starting the game with Stevenson in the lineup for the Mavs is actually INFERIOR competition than what Harden faced in crunch time with Jason Terry playing for the Mavs in those crunch time minutes.

Keith00
Keith00 5pts

@Hermit@J G Marking@TaoMaas How many teams are playing their backups against Russ-James-KD-Ibaka-Perkins? If opponents see those guys on the floor, they are FORCED to put their best team in to match them.

You are making a very black and white claim that doesn't seem to hold a lot of water. In terms of 5 man units, there is little reason to expect the starting lineup (with Thabo) is facing significantly better competition than the ending lineup (with Harden) overall.

Hermit
Hermit 5pts

@J G Marking@TaoMaas But your still not addressing the inequity in competition. Your getting into the same issues that come from establishing strength of schedules in all sports.

J G Marking
J G Marking 5pts

@Hermit@TaoMaas "Stats don't tell the whole story here, and especially defensive stats. There might be some substance to defensive team stats, but individual stats are weak. And that applies to almost every sport. Its very difficult to quantify individual defensive ability."Which is precisely why the article used FIVE-MAN unit statistics regarding points scored and points allowed, not individual stats. So, yes, you're absolutely correct...in supporting the fact that the team offensive and defensive stat differentials show that for the starting five man units, there is a distinct advantage to having Harden with the starting five than Thabo.

Keith00
Keith00 5pts

@Hermit@J G Marking@TaoMaas Lebron-Wade-Bosh have no one to rest against on defense. KD statistically is a pretty good defender. With his length, he has little trouble challenging shots. Moreover, there is no black and white starter/backup defensive assignment against opposing teams. Top scorers play a lot more than Thabo, so it's not like Harden is never facing them. Harden is, in fact, the best perimeter defender we have off the bench.

Likewise, how much rest do top scorers get being able to guard Thabo. It is all a cycle. They may work harder on offense against him, but get a rest every 30 seconds because Thabo doesn't need to be guarded. Harden would force opposing top players to expend more energy defensively (which is more taxing overall). This means they will be less spry or effective by the end of the game.

Lambchop
Lambchop 5pts

He passes the eye test, the win% test, the common sense test, the ask any other person in the world test, the quantum physics test...

Daniel Hawaii
Daniel Hawaii 5pts

J.G., I was slightly on the side of keeping James in his current 6th man role, but after reading this, I'm totally on board with your plan. START THE BEARD!

The only minor concern I'd have with your "funsie" scenario is KD having to play the entire 1st quarter and the first 3 minutes of the 2nd quarter. Seems like a lot. Maybe get Thabo/Cook some minutes at the end of the 1st quarter at the 2/3 spots, with Russ still in the game. That's it though. I think your plan is very well thought out and I see no reason why we shouldn't trot out our 5 best players to start each game.

Great article. Great job on the research. Make 50 copies and overnight them to each member of the Thunder organization, starting with Scotty Brooks.

TreyFiveOnMyBack
TreyFiveOnMyBack 5pts

Is there any word on reggie coming from the camp? I saw a video on youtube with trainers talking about his freakish wingspan and stepback crossover. Im really hoping he can adjust quickly and contribute towards bench scoring/playmaking. He seems capable of being similar to how harden played off the bench...but with better handles. Hes crafty and loves to drive. Im stoked for this season!

YunderUp
YunderUp 5pts

@TreyFiveOnMyBack Think I read today that he's dealing with a groin issue, Harden too.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

@YunderUp@TreyFiveOnMyBack sounds like they were slightly out of basketball shape.

TreyFiveOnMyBack
TreyFiveOnMyBack 5pts

what's up everybody? long time no chat...

Hype_don
Hype_don 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

So I am thunder all the way but I would love to see a good clippers team with blake griffin. Also I would love to see the clippers become the better team in LA.

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts

@Hype_don I agree. I'm getting league pass this season. Blake's worth the price of admission alone. If the Thunder aren't playing I'm watching Blake.

Olajuwon87
Olajuwon87 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

The current Clippers look pretty impressive actually. A starting line-up of Chauncey Billups (claimed from New York amnesty waiver), Eric Gordon, Caron Butler, Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan/Chris Kaman is probably the most notable Clipper line-up I've seen to date. Unless they get bitten by the Portland injury bug or have some monumental screw-up they should be a playoff team this year. @Hype_don

dantheman
dantheman 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I will be very annoyed if the Clippers pull off a trade for Chris Paul without having to give up Gordon.

Chris Paul

Eric Gordon

Caron Butler

Blake Griffin

DeAndre Jordan

...yikes

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts

@dantheman _Its not gonna happen. The league has basically made it clear they aren't going to let him go.

dantheman
dantheman 5pts

@Old Man Game

It was the Clipper that rejected the last deal, not the league

TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard
TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard 5pts

@dantheman@Old Man Game but that's because the league increased the demand (in perfect CBA Stern negotiating fashion), so being not stupid, the clips rejected it

[coke head]
[coke head] 5pts

Marc Gasol officially re-signs with Memphis for the max, 4 years $58 million.

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts

@[censored] Marc Gasol is a max guy now? Whatever.

YunderUp
YunderUp 5pts

@Old Man Game@[censored] Didn't Heisley or Wallace promise Z-Bo before the playoffs that they'd bring back Marc? He is clearly one of the emerging bigs in the league, and that frontcourt is nasty. I still have visions from one of last season's regular season games vs Mem, with their high-low action just simply torching the fantastic frontcourt of Krstic/Green. http://youtu.be/6cZPQgXGoPMScary video.

Grolgar
Grolgar 5pts

BTW, what's up with the picture of Harden J.G. chose to use? I feel like he's looking straight through my soul...

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts

@Grolgar _The beard knows what's in your soul. That's how he crosses dudes over and gets to the rim at while despite have "old man game" speed because he knows which way the defender's going before they do.

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts

Man there must be an NBA season about to start or somethin'. We got over 100 comments in a DT thread. Love it!

[coke head]
[coke head] 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Didn't notice this before but GSW renounced their rights to Reggie Williams in order to sign DeAndre Jordan to the offer sheet. So he's UFA now.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

billups to clippers

dantheman
dantheman 5pts

@f5alcon

Clippers are going to either have to amnesty one of Kaman/Mo Williams or not match the Warriors' offer sheet for DeAndre Jordan to keep Billups. Wow, crazy

courtsense
courtsense 5pts

@dantheman@f5alcon No, the Clips were way under the cap to begin with and are only paying a small portion of CB's salary. Knicks still paying the rest.

OkcBaby
OkcBaby 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

New Orleans trying to keep Chris Paul F-O-R-E-V-E-R

TempBoy Brandon
TempBoy Brandon 5pts

So the NBA nixed the Clippers/Hornets deal. Said the Hornets were asking for too much. But the deal isn't dead yet. Think it will still happen?

Jax Raging Bile Duct
Jax Raging Bile Duct 5pts

@TempBoy Brandon I think people are getting the hint that trading with the Hornets is off the table.

Keith00
Keith00 5pts

@Jax Raging Bile Duct@TempBoy Brandon League is waiting for Paul to walk so they can contract the Hornets. Either that or they just hate New Orleans and never want to see them be any good.

I'm waiting for next offseason for an email to come out that Stern is strong-arming Paul into staying.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

I wonder if there is any chance that we give lat will a roster spot later in the year.

bballmangc
bballmangc 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I'm just not sure about the lineups from the 2nd quarter until 4:30 left.

As described above the lineups would be:12:00 Maynor, Durant, Thabo,

9:00 Maynor, Harden, Thabo/Cook

6:00 Westbrook, Harden, Thabo/Cook

Seems there may be a drought here in 2nd quarter until 6:00 or 4:30 mark.

TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard
TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Great twitter quote retweeted from TrueHoop:

Of what, exactly? RT @JaredZwerling: D'Antoni: "We think Bibby has a lot left."

DXL
DXL 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

There's a difference between the fanbase's desire for Harden to start, and the reality that Thabo will be the starter on Christmas day. With the shortened training camp, and Harden's day-to-day injury, there's little chance of him earning the job during this camp.

I do think there's 50/50 chance Harden is starting by the first playoff series.

TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard
TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@DXL I could see Brooks using this reasoning and wouldn't be surprised. However, if Harden has not become the starter by early-mid January, I'm raising the pitchforks and torches

Grolgar
Grolgar 5pts

"...there's little chance of him earning the job during this camp."

Uh, Harden earned the starting job by outplaying Thabo all of last season.

DXL
DXL 5pts

@Grolgar Exactly, that's what we think. But the coaching staff does things in their own way. The smart money says Sefolosha will start the majority of the games this year.

Thunderup13
Thunderup13 5pts

First thing I have to say about this article is Go Devils! and Harden of course.

Secondly, I don't care how young this team is, pushing these guys through back-to-back-toback games and numerous back-to-back games is going to be intense. Scotty is going to need to find a way to get to the playoffs without killing these guys, because if he does there will be no stopping the intensity the Thunder can pose.

Third, were inauspiciously talking about our "Big 3" when I believe we have a "Big 4". Ibaka is going to become a superstar and more. The man is a freak athlete and his only going up from here.

Although many would disagree, Perk just doesn't fit who we are. We needed him for his playoff experience but I believe we now know what it takes and now need someone (Dwight H, Nene) who can fly up and down the court with us.

I love all our Thunder players but I would love more to hear the town of Oklahoma City before the phrase World Champions.

Its Raining 3's
Its Raining 3's 5pts

@Thunderup13 I don't know if you read any of the articles about how much weight Perkins has lost or his workout video from a month ago, but he will be a different player. He weights about the same as Howard, granted he is an inch shorted and not as proportional, but he was 297 last year. Perkins was able to guard SF's before his injury and he has been running like mad in his workouts. Until I see his speed hurting us this year, I will reserve all judgement.

Hermit
Hermit 5pts

When the plaoffs started last year, Carlisle started Stevenson and kept Terry as a sixth man.

Why would he do that ? When Terry is by far the better scorer ?

Why do the Spurs not start Ginobli ?

IDK, myself, I have theories.... but no real answers.

Any of you wanna answer that ?

TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard
TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Hermit I love how you keep bringing up stephenson when your main argument has been that Thabo starts to defend the opposing player's best scorer. See what I did there?

And as pointed out, yes, Terry is the better scorer but Stephenson is not a liability. Thabo is. That's the difference between a Thabo and a Stephenson or Bowen or other "defensive specialist" starter (at a perimeter position). It doesn't help to be a specialist at one end and a liability at the other end.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

@JimboSlice@Hermit stephenson shot 10% better from 3 than thabo.

TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard
TheresABabyFaceUnderMyBeard 5pts

@f5alcon@Hermit exactly. That's kind of a big deal. Not to mention, when defended by Thabo, Stevenson went 6 for 10 from 3 pt land during the Thunder's 3 regular season matchups with the Mavs.

Jax Raging Bile Duct
Jax Raging Bile Duct 5pts

@Hermit I'd have to look into their 5man units to see.

OkcBaby
OkcBaby 5pts

@Hermit Tim Duncan-Dirk Nowinzki- Tyson Chandler...... help

Hermit
Hermit 5pts

@OkcBaby Exactly how ?

OkcBaby
OkcBaby 5pts

@Hermit And their replacements are a little better scorers than Thabo.

OkcBaby
OkcBaby 5pts

@Hermit They have someone other then the PG to score and a good pass first PG

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

@Hermit ginobili started 79 games last year.

Hermit
Hermit 5pts

@f5alcon He is known as the consumate sixth man.

He started 21, 7 , and 23 the three years before that ..

now back to my question .

Its Raining 3's
Its Raining 3's 5pts

@f5alcon@Hermit Look at 82games.com, the mavs were better when Stevenson was at the 2 than Terry, strictly looking at minutes with the starters.

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts

@Hermit Bowen started in front of him and bowen could actually score 38% from 3. Stevenson shot 37% from 3 last year, so while the better scores came off the bench the starters still needed to be defended.

Trackbacks

  1. Give Me The Rock » Blog Archive » Fantasy Basketball Player Tiers: Shooting Guards says:
    December 17, 2011 at 6:55 am

    [...] excites me is that there is a very good chance he starts for the Thunder over Thabo Sefolosha (and rightly so). A starting gig and a bump in minutes means that Harden could explode this year even if his per-36 [...]

  2. DT Season Preview: 10 season storylines to watch | Daily Thunder.com says:
    December 19, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    [...] the Thunder would be better off with James Harden. I mean, it’s hard to argue with things like numbers and facts. If Brooks chooses to stick with last season’s starting five and there are issues, the noise [...]

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