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No messing around, let’s get right to the questions:
Hypothetically, would you rather keep Harden or Ibaka? — Jeff V
That’s like picking between In-N-Out or Chick-Fil-A. Or at least it is for me. Both so very wonderful, in terrifically, fantastically different ways. I mean, a Neapolitan shake with a double or some nuggets with sweet potato fries… wait, what are we talking about again? Anyway… I’d go with Harden. Serge Ibaka is an immensely talented young big that might have a ceiling he can’t even touch. He could be a potential 15-10-3 guy. He still has a lot of room to fill out and he’s just 22.
But James Harden strikes me as the type of player you have on a championship team. The Manu Ginobili comparison works, but Harden can carry an offense on his own. He just fits. Finding an adequate 4 isn’t easy, but the Thunder could survive making do Nick Collison or someone else. I don’t think you could really replace Harden. To me, Durant-Westbrook-Harden is a better core than Durant-Westbrook-Ibaka.
That question sucked enough as it was, but someone one-upped it with this one…
Would you rather keep Westbrook and Durant plus an average third or Harden and Durant plus a good third? — Colby
So basically, Westbrook and Durant or Durant, Ibaka and Harden? I said on last week’s TGR that this was like the Thunder’s Sophie’s Choice. It’s Presti’s Choice. With the new collective bargaining agreement, this very well could be the reality and one of the reasons Westbrook doesn’t have his extension yet. David Stern pretty much said point blank that’s the way it would be for OKC.
It will be very difficult for the Thunder to hang on to those four players without breaking into the luxury tax. It’s a question nobody wants to think about but players don’t stay on teams forever. A decision might have to be made, and made soon.
There’s a common line of thinking that you can win a championship with two All-Stars. Westbrook and Durant are both that with one being a top three player and the other a fringe top 10 guy. Harden is All-Star material, but I don’t know if he’s potentially a top 10 player. Ibaka, the same.
I could talk myself into either side all day long. I lean towards Harden and Ibaka because I think the Thunder would make a little more sense that way. But then again, Westbrook and Durant can straight overwhelm teams with their talent constant offensive pressure. Harden and Ibaka are the safer play because that’s a good, solid core. But Westbrook and Durant could be something otherworldly.
The answer to this lies in which combination gives the Thunder the best chance to win a championship. And I’m not really sure at this point. I think I should know, but whether it’s emotional attachment to the players or just my own delusions of grandeur, I don’t really see a right — or wrong — answer. I’m sure there is, I’m just refusing to take a side right now.
How does the short season and quick training camp help (or hurt) the Thunder this year? – Scott R.
That’s the hot question to ask. Everyone’s talked about it a billion times already but here’s one point I think was overlooked with the Thunder’s short camp: Because of it, Scott Brooks never had a chance to test what it would be like to start Harden.
I was fully convinced after hearing Brooks talk about it during the Western Finals that Harden would begin the year as a starter. Brooks said his staff would evaluate the situation over the summer and make a decision. Which sounded to me like, “Yeah, Harden’s totally starting.” But no camp meant no chance to really test it out. Plus, just two preseason games. Which meant that Brooks couldn’t give it a shot in an exhibition either to figure out how a rotation would work. That’s why I asked him about it after the Portland game. He totally shot me down, but I was curious.
Westbrook and Ibaka for Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio — who says no? — Jake D.
I think both teams would. The Wolves really like their direction and of course the Thunder do. Something that big and bold would really shake up both rosters and potentially could upset a good thing that’s going.
The Wolves would be getting the best player in the deal though. Westbrook is almost at the superstar level and Ibaka has quite the potential. Love is a machine and Rubio as shown flashes, but the Wolves would “win” the deal because they got the most talent in return.
But the more you think about it, the more it’s kind of an interesting thing to consider for Oklahoma City. Rubio, Harden, Durant, Love and Perkins? Pretty good team, no? It’s hard for me not to fantasize about Rubio no-looking a beautiful bounce pass to a backdoor cutting KD. I’m not advocating for this by any means, but in terms of random trade speculation, this could be a fun one to try on NBA 2K12.
The Westbrook-Durant thing is overblown I think and I think overshadows the real question: Can they actually play basketball together? — Dave J.
That’s my question too. Forget all this stuff about not liking each other or altercations or being mortal enemies. None of that really matters to me. Plenty of teams have won with dysfunctional rosters. Why? Because on the court, they made sense. The supposed battle for alpha dog isn’t an issue, but just the style and mentality the two play with could be.
I’m not in that camp that thinks that Durant needs a pure point guard. That noise is overrated because with Westbrook, the Thunder were damn close to the NBA Finals as is. What I don’t like is how sometimes it seems that Westbrook and Durant are forced to take turns instead of playing together. That’s where Harden can be so valuable to serve as a mediator between the two, taking shots and distributing.
I think Westbrook and Durant could win an NBA title together. Do they make perfect sense like Stockton and Malone? No way. I see Westbrook more as what Dwyane Wade was for the Heat in 2005. Wade played a ton of point during the playoffs, handling the ball and taking pressure off Shaq in situations. Westbrook is that same idea of a player. He’s a point guard in name and sometimes game, but he’s a scorer at heart and a guy that simply has too much talent to try and cage and corner into being a pass-first point guard. You’re marginalizing his ability when you do that. That’s not good.
It’s more about learning together how they fit than it is just thinking they can’t fit. Eventually we might figure out they don’t. At this point, I think it’s 50/50 that they do. But if they figure it out, I mean really figure it out, you’re talking about maybe the best duo in basketball. That’s something not worth giving up on quite yet.
Something I’ve always wondered: Do you think the music playing in the game while the Thunder have the ball is distracting for the players? I mean, what if a song comes on you really hate? And all you’re thinking is, “Man, I hate this song, the chorus is so stupid and what’s the deal with the bridge, it’s sounds terrible. Oh crap Wesley Matthews just stole the ball from me.” — Royce Y.
That’s a great question Royce Y. I’ve always wondered that too.
Have a question for the next mailbag? Send it in to dailythunder@gmail.com.
Also what about starting Ibaka at center and Collison at powerforward. I think he would do more for the team then Perkins ever will in the starting line. Hes a much better passer and a better shooter at the line than Perkins.
Ibaka provides so much to the table as a player. One he may be the most athletic big man in the west besides Duncan. But Harden is phenomenal and someday could be as good as Durant. But right now Id take blocks and rebounds over shots and assists. We get enough shooting from Durant and assists from Westbrook. Perkins isnt going to do much for us we need Ibaka to play some good big man basketball.
Hardens Skill set and dynamicism is far more unique to the league as well as his BBIQ. It is far easier to replace or upgrade Serge than it would be to replace Harden
Whoa for Rubio to do a no look pass to Durant cutting to the basket...wouldn't Durant have to cut to the basket?
I think perhaps our owners would not be as scared of the luxury tax as some people seem to think. I'm just guessing of course. But look at the rest of what we know of the 3 or 4 that are semi public figures around here: Has anyone ever seen Mr. McClendon settle for second best at anything? Or Mr. Bennett? In my daydream when the time comes they sit in their pow-wow session with the number in front of them and each mentally divide the number by five and raise their hands with aye votes. One fifthe of the luxury tax penalty apiece, heck man that's not so bad. Small market doesn't mean luxury-proof.
Ibaka is turning into a worse version the Jeff Green
@OkcBaby Ya lost me here.
@OkcBaby he is at least not shooting 3 pointers as much a green.
@f5alcon@OkcBaby
I think Shiki brought this up but I've been thinking about it too. Has anyone here thought about starting Nick and bringing Serge off the bench? Our starting offense is so stagnant and I think Nick would help with that. He's a good passer and is a more capable scorer than Serge.
And Serge seemed to thrive last year when he was able to be a boost off the bench. This way, he wouldn't feel the pressure of having to be a starter. I feel like we haven't had a real "Air Congo" moment or anything like that since he was forced into the starting lineup.
Anyone else agree?
Do you guys think Maynor could be our starting point guard? He reminds me a little bit of steve nash. He can shoot the 3, doesn't turn the ball over much, has a nice floater in the lane, ect. He's a pass first point guard which is what we need. If so, what could we get for westbrook? This would allow us to possibly resign Harden and Ibaka.
@Thunder405 dont ever compare maynor to steve nash ever again.... just dont
@Thunder405 I bet we trade Maynor this summer for a pick. Where does he go? My money is on Detroit.
@Thunder405 We would need to get a scoring 4 or 5 with a trade.
@Thunder405 I think Maynor is a backup point guard in this league.
@Old Man Game Why? What is it that makes you think that? Just curious. I don't think I've ever seen his #'s when playing 36 minutes.
@Thunder405@Old Man Game Talking to the wrong peeps. Got a lot of Maynor haters here:)
I'd like to get my fellow thunder thoughts. Would you give up Westbrook and (name other player) for Howard? I'm assuming it would take more than Westbrook to get Howard.
@Thunder405 I wouldn't do it for Dwight because he wouldn't stay. But if we're not going to be able to keep all 4, then let's start talking about what we could get out of Ibaka.
@Jax Raging Bile Duct We need a low post threat who can score with his back to the basket. Thoughts?
@Thunder405 My thoughts are that we're out of luck. If we have to trade Serge because he'll be too expensive, then that automatically means we're not getting anyone to replace him that can score in the post.
Two things have to happen for us to get scoring in the post. 1) we trade Serge for a lottery pick and hope that guy turns into a post-scoring PF and 2) we need our offensive staff to insist that we feed him the ball. If we always play like we play now it doesn't matter if we had Patrick Ewing on the roster, he's not going to get the ball.
@Jax Raging Bile Duct@Thunder405 yeah if dwight would sign an extension i would, but that probably won't happen like jax said.
I don't think there is much we can do about ibaka though, if we trade him we will either take less value or a player who needs a lot of salary as well.
so i think we just need to keep him as long as possible try and win a title then trade for draft picks and rebuild
@Thunder405 Probably couldnt do a even trade now. Would have been easier before Westbrooks slump. But Ibaka would be in the bundle if you had 2. Dont think Thabo is enough
I can't get over how how ridiculous this schedule is. These guys are going to be worn out by the mid-way point. It may already be happening, Durant hasn't shot well recently, he is probably exhausted after 7 games in 10 days.
@Old Man Game All the more reason we need to start pounding the ball down inside. Our free throws are down from last year. I don't think we'll be able to continue shooting a good percentage which is already starting to show.
@Thunder405@Old Man Game Yeah, I feel like they tried some against the Blazers, it just seemed like every time a perimeter player drove the lane it ended in a turnover/offensive foul or a miss/block. I think a lot of that had to do with a more "let them play" game by the refs, but it seemed like the team was frustrated by the lack of any success at all in the paint. I like Perk's newfound aggressiveness on offense, but I still kinda cringe and brace for a turnover when he starts backing someone down. If he could start recognizing the guard coming over to double him and force a turnover by passing out, it could really help. It amuses me that he seems to tempt teams into doubling him in the post more for his proclivity for turnovers rather than an overwhelming offensive post presence.
@sammasaaron@Thunder405@Old Man Gameyeah he needs to catch and shoot not dribble around
@Thunder405@Old Man Game Exactly why do we go away from it. Just because they miss a few. Come on! KD was like 8 for 28 or something and Russ is around 30% shooting. Give the Big guys a chance.
@Old Man Game Hell, I'm already worn out from watching at home and I keep forgetting about the games and missing the first quarter. Plus those guys have to deal with all the media bullcrap in addition to the nonstop schedule.
Great questions!! I like the Rubio, Love for Westbrook, Ibaka. The thunder would lose a lot of d though.
I keep reading these hypothetical questions about choosing between Harden and Westbrook? I won't pretend to be a salary cap expert, but is it really set in stone that they can't keep both?
@anonymous12345 I think that Bennett will pay up for 3 or 4 years in the tax. I still think we keep all 4 of our core for 3 or 4 years into there next deals, and then we will trade Perk's expiring contract and Ibaka for whatever we are looking for at that time, and get out of the tax.
Clay Bennett has got them dolla dolla bills y'all. He married into it. He will pay it. He saw what San Antonio did when they got Duncan. When you get a once in a decade player like Duncan or Durant. You pay whatever you can to keep talent around them to win championships. All they really have to do is keep the city building stadiums and raising ticket prices on us, and we are all good!!
For the record, I support all of those things if it means keeping the team together.
@anonymous12345 It's not set in stone, but it will either take something creative from Presti or Bennett will have to be willing to pay the tax.
At least that's how I understand it.
@Royce Young@anonymous12345 The spurs were able to afford 3 stars, i don't see why we can't. keeping ibaka is probably the tougher one.
Durant eats 30% of cap, westbrook if he plays like he is now all season probably won't get the 30% so he is 25%, harden will not qualify for 30% and probably wont get max but assuming he does
So those three are 80% of the cap. Perkins is using 13% of the cap, so that leaves 7%+15% between cap and tax line which is 22% which is about 13 million. jackson uses 1.3 million, hayward uses 2.1mm, thabo uses 3.9mm, collison uses 2.5mm, aldrich 3.2mm. Which is exactly 13 million. So we are right at the lux tax threshold if russ and harden both get max, but harden probably gets less and we have a bit of room.
@Royce Young@anonymous12345 I don't know anything about Bennett's business tendencies but I have to imagine that the cost is well worth it
@sammasaaron@Fezzy@Royce Young@anonymous12345 I bet they'd first level tax penalty of $1 per $1, but I bet nothing after that. AND, they'll only do it for 4 years, because if they go into the 5th year they'll have to pay $2 for $1.
So in short, yes they'd probably pay some low level tax, but wouldn't be repeat offenders.
@Fezzy@Royce Young@anonymous12345 Yeah, that's kind of what I've been wondering, too. Would Bennett and the other ownership really not be willing to pay the tax for a several years of competing for a championship? San Antonio must've been over the luxury line for a while and they made it work in a small market, right?
Considering there was a lockout and Defense wins games. Thunder are just fine. :)
@OkcBaby Considering our defense has been so mediocre so far....?
@Keith00 Considering Westbrook is shooting 30% FG and like 11% from 3. We are still 5-2 and a top team in the West.
@OkcBaby@Keith00 I think RW's fg% will balance back out, but as someone said last we were incredibly close to being 4-3 right now. Ibaka's gotta figure out how to effectively defend 1 on 1.
The current roster is just fine. Just a shame that Stern is such a nazi. That sob accomplished nothing with the lockout. He only made it more difficult for the small market. He and ESPN are one in the same. Heat, Bulls, Lakers and they hope the Knicks. They both have an agenda. And if people don't realize it by now then your living in wonder land. I will celebrate the day Stern leaves.
@Newyorklahoman Well, celebrating until you realize that the league is now in the hands of Adam Silver and Stu Jackson. But, yeah, Papa Stern has overstayed his welcome. And I don't care how much better the Clippers trade was for the Hornets, that doesn't justify just how horribly Houston got screwed in that botched three-teamer.
If forced to choose between Ibaka and Harden, I'd go with Harden because of his versatility. You have more options when you've got a player like that.
A court I used to play on had a dance group practicing upstairs next to the court (out of sight). They had music blaring constantly but I never heard it while the game was on, I only noticed when there was a deadball or free throws. So the music didn’t bother me but everyone’s different I guess.
@AussieThunder which is definitely just like the music playing in an nba game
#5. The perceived personality conflict is a non-issue. Unfortunately, I have serious doubts as to whether KD and Westbrook can actually win a championship together because of the nature of their respective games.
#4. It's debatable whether Westbrook is the best player in that deal. A young PF (Love) who averages 20/10, who can stretch the D with the 3pt shot, and who possesses a high basketball IQ is very rare, and in this case would be a great complement to Durant and Harden. Similarly, a young PG (Rubio) who sees the floor like very few others, who makes his teammates better, and who is a lock to average 10+ assists within a year is a great complement as well. Westbrook is certainly a dynamic player, and probably a marquee player in his own way. Ibaka is a nice value, but is at best a role player on a good team - he has neither the hands nor the basketball IQ to be a legitimate 3rd option. Unfortunately for OKC fans, there's no way that deal gets done.
@courtsense It's debatable, but I think it's close to a wash any way you slice it. Love is a special player (ugh, I sound like Scotty B.) and I think his rebounding and post scoring would make the Thunder almost unstoppable. However, Love is just about the definition of a one-way player whereas Westbrook has the potential to be a top-5 defender, in my opinion anyway. Personally, I think you can build a team around Westbrook, but I see Kevin Love as needing to be the #2 option on a really successful team.
As far as the trade, we'd be taking a hit defensively but it might not be that noticeable given how we've played so far this season. The Rubio-Harden-KD-Love-Perk lineup is just too much fun to think about.
@sammasaaron@courtsense I think Westbrook has the most talent of any player in the deal. Ibaka too is just oozing with it, but the Thunder would win that trade by fit. What is it Love needs more than anything next to him? An elite defensive center - check for the thunder. What do KD and Harden need more than anything to stop long offensive droughts? A consistently efficient 2nd/3rd option and more passing - big check with Love and Rubio.
We would not be a more talented team with that trade, but we would be more balanced, more capable of adapting to situations, and smarter overall.
@sammasaaron@Keith00@courtsense Are you kidding?! I'd do that deal in a heartbeat and never look back. I just don't think Minny or Presti would ever do it. It would take a real knucklehead GM (like Otis Smith) to make a trade like that from Minny's side.
@Keith00@courtsense See, and this is why I think it's an interesting trade to think about. Minnesota gives up a lot, but they get talent with a higher ceiling in return. I get the reasons for both sides not going through with it, but you have to at least think about it, right?
@Keith00@sammasaaron@courtsense Bingo, Keith...wish I'd said it that well.