Wednesday Bolts – 8.1.12

 @OBoymuzik Allen is a great wing defender, but no way near Artest level in strength and athleticism.  I don't think Artest is 6'7 either.  He sure as hell doesn't play like it.  There aren't really that much highlights for Artest though.

 @thelaughingwiseman This is the pass that he still says wasn't stupid but it was genius http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BUpeEhN9yLI

 @thelaughingwiseman Would you rather have him over allen though?

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct I do get your perspective because people say the same things about ASGs and especially the Pro Bowl being not worth the injury risk.  That doesn't negate that fact that the selection is an honor however deserved or hollow it may seem to an individual.

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct I'm not necessarily arguing, but providing perspective.  I'm sure Barkley would have traded in (at least one of) his Olympic medals, his 11 All Star and 11 All-NBA selections and maybe even his MVP for an NBA championship.  Basketball is a team game so team achievement is the definition of greatness.  Clearly winning an NBA championship is more difficult than winning an Olympic gold, so in that discussion I completely agree.  It really isn't an honor for USA basketball to win gold because they are so much better it truly is a failure if they lose.

However, the discussion was about playing/representing not winning medals.  Being selected to the Olympic team is basically like making an All Star team.  Nobody complains about individual awards and I'm sure Barkley is similarly proud of making 11 All Star games as he is making two Olympic teams.  It is just another individual recognition of greatness.

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct  @senseandsenescence

You're wrong.  I've been watching the Olympics and, apparently, the Dream Team is all that has ever mattered in the universe.   :)

(Good discussion today, Jax.  It's refreshing to "debate" with fairly reasonable people--or people like you--who can disagree respectfully.  I only wish ou_sas had weighed in with his duo-nationality perspective.)

 @senseandsenescence You think Barkley wouldn't trade his gold medal for an NBA championship? He would. No one cares that he lead the dream team in scoring and won a gold medal. Why? It isn't that impressive. Not compared to winning an NBA title. An Olympic gold medal is a poor consolation prize for star NBA players who can't get the job done in the NBA.

The Olympics simply isn't the venue where you prove that you're the best in the world at your sport if you're an NBA player.

It can't be an honor to grab a consolation prize in the name of the country where you just happen to have been born.

But to each his own. I think I should step down for good now.

 @f5alcon The do. Or did back when I was in.  He got drunk, stabbed a guy in a bar fight.  Judge gave him the option of 4 years in the Navy, or 4 years in jail on attempted murder.  He chose the Navy and believe it or not was one of the best guys I ever worked with.  Big ole hispanic dude from San Antonio.  

 @Tronchaser  they actually gave him the option of military or jail? I didn't think they really did that

 @justin_mia  Certainly true.  The reasons are as varied as the people in the military...  I know mine we're different than everyone around me.  Heck, one guy I worked with was there because he had a choice of going into the Navy, or going to jail.  He choose poorly! lol    Be we weren't blood thirsty pirates waiting for some poor soul to come along and shoot in the name of the country.

 @justin_mia Exactly, except that in the Olympics, all the players on Team USA are actually American citizens, as opposed to the Thunder players, who are all represent OKC by proxy. 

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct No, no, no.  Bro, not at your comments about honor.  That's fine, and to some extent I agree. Certainly not fully though.  I was responding more towards justins comment there than yours. I think your name got tagged with it too though.

Believe me, I don't mind being offended.  Life is not pink fluffy ponies and lollipops getting along all the time. (ask my co-workers! ha!)

Honor is a very personal thing and it's not going to be the same for everyone, the point was that people can find honor in just about anything if it's focused through that lens of patriotism and national pride, as is done with the Olympics.

 @Tronchaser  @Jax Raging Bile Duct I wasn't attempting to generalize, I'm only being realistic.  I worked for many years down in Homestead and mingled with plenty of soldiers and most of them I came to know (especially from this generation) did not join the military out of some national virtue.

 @Tronchaser  I would like to think I'm not that cynical overall. But I suppose I am on a few subjects. And again, I hate it that you were offended. I should have kept that opinion to myself. My apologies.

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct  @ThunderChick2010 I find the subject interesting..  I also did not know you were so cynical, Jax.  lol

Just don't want to completely jeopardize my goddess/scholar status . . .

Okay, really leaving now!

 @ThunderChick2010 Awww... well as you can tell, I liked this subject. But I understand if we've met our quota for controversial and need to move on to something more lighthearted.

See?  That's what I get for sorta trying to talk about basketball.  Better stick to the movies, music, birthdays, etc.   :)

 @ThunderChick2010 It turned military when justin said people join the military so they can kill others, and equating it with "honor".

 @ThunderChick2010 both represent the country?

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct  @Tronchaser 

Okay, it's been an HONOR, but I gotta leave for a while . . .

How did our Olympic talk morph into a military one?  (Certainly, no disrespect intended toward you, Tronchaser.)

 @Tronchaser As for the athletes not having thoughts and beliefs of their own - that's my bias. I find it difficult to put much stock in the thoughts of people who are basically high school graduates who have been pandered and entitled for years.

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct *dishonest*  .. sorry, fast fingers.

 @Tronchaser  My apologies. I hope my friends find people like you there to help them out in their lives.

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct Maybe they do say this because they've heard it before and they think they have to say it, but I also don't pretend to know the thoughts and beliefs of every athlete competing. To do so would be very honest with myself.

 @justin_mia  @Jax Raging Bile Duct Maybe there are people like that in the military. In my 8 years of military service, I've never once met a person that has EVER said that.  The reasons for joining are diverse for sure. And I'm sure there was a small % of people were there for that reason, but I never met anyone like that.  To be honest, I kinda find that offensive bro.

I think this is at the heart of what bugs you right here--and probably why, admittedly, Tramel's words strike a sour chord with me.  Very insightful, Jax.  (not sarcasm)

 @ThunderChick2010 I should have said "The civic satisfaction I get (if any) from the Thunder doing well..."

 @ThunderChick2010  The satisfaction I get from the Thunder doing well in the NBA is because there is finally something other than a bombing to think about when it comes to OKC. I have a higher emotional connection to the Thunder because I have been able to attend over 100 of their games in person. But my self confidence is not boosted in the least because I happen to live in the same city as a group of players from all over the country who happen to temporarily come together here to win basketball games at a high level.

 @Tronchaser I think every athlete says that because they're supposed to. Or because that's what they've been told a million times by people in their authority bias, and have come to believe it. Or they say it because that's what you're supposed to say, just like they're supposed to say that if you work hard and play harder then you'll be a winner. It's just rope memory at work.

 @justin_mia  I can see honor in the military (in theory - hardly in a practice that depends on the PR of a figure head president). But in theory, participating in the military is a way to enforce ideals that you believe in, such as freedom from tyranny and oppressive governments. You save the lives of innocent people, you defend the helpless. There is honor in that.

If you joined the military for those reasons, I understand that as an honor. Though I know a few dozen people who have joined the military and that is never their reason, they do it because they don't have any other choice once they dropped out of high school or because they don't have a job and can't afford to pay alimony to some girl they knocked up a few months back. But that's beside the point.

But sports are different. Countries have collections of athletes that spend their time getting better at stuff people don't care about, like curling or the pommel horse or shot put. They participate in no ideals that they can prove by winning, other than hard work + talent means you can do stuff really well, even if no one cares about it.

But whatever, if you want to prove that you're the best curler, I'm cool with it. I just don't see how I'm supposed to take some sort of civic or national pride in it. I literally had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct  @Tronchaser 

Do you take some sort of satisfaction in knowing that the most decorated team in the NBA's Western Conference this year is from the same city/state you happen to live in?

(I do.  That's just the spirit of being a sports fan--even if the players are driven more by their competitive fire rather than a desire to perform for "their" city.  I'm not sure where honor fits it . . . just know we can't always boil it down to reason and rationality.)

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct I dunno bro.  Why is it every athlete chosen to be on the Olympic team says "It's an honor to be here representing my country."   I guess you'll have to ask them why.

As far as being represented by Phelps, I get satisfaction knowing that my "neighbors" (loosely used there)  are succeeding.  Yes. 

For the record,  I don't really watch Olympics. Ha!

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct  @Tronchaser The same way you take civic pride in the Thunder (presumably), others take national pride in American athletes competing on an international stage.  There are people that willingly join the military for the chance to kill others in the name of our country, it's not hard for me to believe that there are those who would compete athletically for the same 'honor'.

 @Tronchaser It's that loose connection that I don't understand. Do you feel represented by Michael Phelps? Do you take some sort of satisfaction in knowing that the most decorated swimmer in history is from the same country you happen to have been born in?

I find it hard to believe that Phelps does what he does because he had the thought as a 12 year old "Hey, this country that I happened to have been born in is awesome. I, as a 12 year old, can determine this on my own. I want to prove to the world that this is true, by swimming better than anyone else. Ever! Muahahahaha...."

I find it more likely that he was good at swimming, and wanted to be the best, and his own internal drive and competitive fire compelled him to win. The Olympics happen to be his stage, and it happens to be associated with his country.

How that relationship has been construed to be an honor is beyond me.

Jax, you're like the Olympic Grinch today. 

Every Who Down in Who-ville liked the Olympics a lot...

But the Jax, who lived just north of Who-ville (in Canada), did NOT!

The Jax hated the Olympics!  The whole Olympic season!

Now, please don't ask why.  No one quite knows the reason.

It could be that his head wasn't screwed on quite right.

It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were too tight.

But I think that the most likely reason of all

May have been that his heart was two sizes too small.

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct In the NBA, you represent yourself for the most part. Sure, you're on a team, but the contract is yours.  When you're playing Olympic sports, you aren't just representing yourself, you represent the 330 +/- million people that fall under that same flag.  Same goes with any country.

 @Tronchaser  Why?

Just because? Or is there an actual reason?

 @ThunderBelize  The point is that I'm about as patriotic towards the US as a Canadian would be toward the US. NOT that a Canadian isn't patriotic towards Canada.

 @ThunderChick2010 Offence taken to the seeming lack of respect to Canadian patriotism. And if I was an owner and my franchise player was playing freebie ball of any kind (Ruckers, Drew League or Olympics/FIBA) I would be protesting much louder than Cuban. Players that command double digit millions per year, who likely bring in quadruple that for the team just by their names alone and putting them in position for potential injury - minor or major - is foolishness. And if the league can enforce it's other conduct rules during the off season then it should be able to enforce activity rules as well. I know during the season it does thanks to a Vladimir Radmanovic skiing injury several years back with lakers where he was suspended without pay for violating a term in his contract. The contract is in force 12 months of the year for X number of years. 

I also think that on an international level it will make the tournaments that much more exciting and competitive.

In truth I feel the same about NHLer's playing in the winter olympics where Canada is often a favorite for Gold thanks to its hockey talent pool.

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct  The very first one. 

 @Tronchaser  @Jax Raging Bile Duct  Yet at the same time players day in and day out never pass up the opportunity of a pick up game at Rucker because the sense of knowing that there has been great tradition, and history in that black top alone. Nothing will ever eclipse the dream team as far as basketball goes, but Rucker was one of the birthplaces of the sport, and to me a pick up game at Rucker Park would mean much more then a elimination round in the Olympics, and maybe even on a limb and say more then a gold medal. Of course i'm not the NBA player so i wouldn't really know how its like to have the opportunity to make those decisions. 

 @Tronchaser  @Jax Raging Bile Duct  True, Just saying that the Olympics has lost its sense of "Hardcore Patriotism", I wasn't around during the time but i'm sure countries all over the world don't take it as serious as it may have been lets during the 40's 60's 80's? Especially sports that have a much bigger professional set league (Basketball, Baseball which is no longer there, Boxing, Soccer, Hockey) 

 @ElMexiThunder Which comment were you responding to? I jackson polluck'd this thread with a litany of related comments, and I can't determine which one you have in mind.

 @ElMexiThunder  @Jax Raging Bile Duct I think it's more of not knowing that culture than overlooking it.

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct  Idk might get some heat for this but i think its more noble to the culture of basketball, and a great sensation knowing you just got done balling in one of the most legendary courts in the world. Most people tend to over look that though. 

 @ThunderChick2010 I'm sure Serge will be well taken care of by all the Spanish ladies over there.  :)

 @Tronchaser It's not realistic, but you never know until you ask.

 @Tronchaser  @Jax Raging Bile Duct 

(He knows.)

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct Jax.... not realistic.

 @Tronchaser  No, just stop playing ball in risky situations.

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct  @ThunderChick2010 You asking guys who've played ball all their lives..... to stop playing ball. 

<.<      >.>    o.O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

 @ThunderChick2010 If it were me, the only physical activity allowed would be supervised, assisted by medical staff and approved by trainers and nutritionists.

But I swear I'm not a communist.

Why don't we just bubble-wrap them the moment they step off the playoff court?  (I'll volunteer to take care of Serge.)

 @Tronchaser  @ThunderChick2010 I disagree with that. I don't think it's just as likely. I think it's more likely they get hurt playing in Rucker Park against unpredictable opponents who are trying too hard, with no medical staff in sight, and no one to ensure they prepare properly.

Suffice it to say I don't think they should be doing Rucker Park either. Much less noble, much less practical to their development, just as much at risk.

 @ThunderChick2010  @Jax Raging Bile Duct I think the players would be just as likely to injure themselves playing pickup ball at Rucker as playing Olympic ball.  /shrug

 @Jax Raging Bile Duct 

Okay, I'm just whining now . . . but it's THE OLYMPICS.  If you're going to get injured (or as an owner, see a player injured), as regrettable as that would be, at least it would be in the noble pursuit of glory on behalf of your country.  I think even the Canadians would agree with me here.  :)

 @ThunderChick2010 Some things can legitimately be placed in the 'accident' category, other things can legitimately be placed in the 'playing with fire' category.