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Sunday Bolts – Bye-bye Beard Edition

by Royce Young on October 28, 2012 at 10:34 am 1,232 Comments

J.A. Adande of ESPN.com on the move for OKC: “Bad move. It’s not that Harden is the critical element to the Thunder’s success. (In their only NBA Finals victory against the Heat, he scored just five points.) But the familiarity this team had built was a big part of its identity. They were comfortable. They knew exactly what this group could do. Now they enter the unknown — and that includes the career of the promising Jeremy Lamb. Potential means you haven’t done anything.”

Ben Golliver of SI.com: “The Thunder can’t take home an “A” in moving Harden. He’s too good as a player and he was too perfect as a fit. The “A” play for Presti was to convince Bennett to step up and swallow the tax bills. But he earns his “B+” for getting the exact package you would expect him to acquire: a large expiring contract, capable players to fill the hole he created, and draft picks that offer future flexibility. Moving from Harden to Martin is a noticeable downgrade, but it’s not exactly falling off a cliff. Martin has been aching to play for a winner, can draw fouls like nobody’s business, and is a career 37.7 percent three-point shooter. That can work well. Lamb, meanwhile, is all upside. The Thunder will have the luxury of developing him slowly and incubating him in a winning culture. Their track record on getting the most of young players is pretty solid, to say the least.”

NBA players react to the Harden news.

John Hollinger of ESPN.com: “They won’t be able to fill those spots with anybody as good as James Harden, but they may get a better fit in Lamb, and if they can get 3-4 decent supporting players to replace the Derek Fishers and Daequan Cooks of a year ago, it’s possible they come out even or ahead on the bargain. Nonetheless, this was a trade made with a gun to their head, and it’s tough to win those. The Thunder did about as well as they could to come away with a prospect at a need position, a one-year rental of a deadly scorer, two firsts and a high second. I’ll have more on their short-term prospects by Monday, but if you were going to trade James Harden, this was the deal to make.”

James Harden tweets: “I would love to Thank Oklahoma City for 3 amazing years! Teammates and Fans were thee best. The love will always be there. Thanks Again.”

Winners and Losers from the Harden trade.

Brian Windhorst of ESPN.com: “The Thunder hoped, and obviously expected, that Harden would follow suit. On the court, he had been willing to accept a sixth-man role for the good of the team, and both parties benefited. Harden was named Sixth Man of the Year and the Thunder reached the NBA Finals last season. In the end, sources said, the Thunder had to make a decision based on risk: not just the financial and basketball risk that came with allowing Harden to become a free agent, but also the risk of deviating from their philosophy, and what that would mean for the players who had been willing to follow it in the past. What Presti and Harden decided is clear. Less clear are the consequences on the court.”

Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo! Sports with an inside look at the deal: “Oklahoma City’s front office was melancholy on Saturday night. They had drafted this core, developed it and hoped they could keep it together for years and years. Ownership might have gone further with its final offer of $54 million, but Presti drew the line on how much he was willing to invest into Harden and ended the talks there. The NBA’s new collective bargaining agreement delivers devastating luxury-tax penalties to teams over the cap – $1.50 for every dollar over the tax threshold – and Presti simply couldn’t justify the cost. This wouldn’t go until Wednesday night’s deadline, Presti informed Pelinka. That’s the final offer, and his next call would be to Houston to tell Morey: Let’s reach out to the league office and get a trade call to make this official.”

Ken Berger of CBSSports.com: “Harden’s future in Oklahoma City was always going to be about whether he’d be willing to take less money and continue in a lesser role than restricted free agency would eventually afford him in both areas. Facing a similar decision, Ibaka decided to hitch his defensive-player-of-the-year credentials to Durant and Westbrook and chose winning over money. Harden, whose scoring and playmaking skills made a max offer in restricted free agency next summer a virtual certainty, couldn’t swallow the notion of being underpaid and underutilized — factors that were inevitable had he agreed to Presti’s last, best offer. That’s his decision, one the Thunder don’t and shouldn’t begrudge — but one Presti decided he wouldn’t helplessly watch unfold.”

Buck Harvey of the San Antonio News-Express: “But Harden is special. He is clever, and he works the refs, and he knows the nuances of the game. He also creates for teammates better than Westbrook ever has. That — and his left-handed drives — make him the closest thing to Ginobili the league has seen. Harden wasn’t the same against the Heat in the Finals. Still, what he showed against the Spurs in the Western Conference finals suggests he will be the kind of player who wins in pressure moments for the next decade. This is why OKC isn’t as scary today. The Thunder wouldn’t have beaten the Spurs last spring without Harden, and that moment in Game 5 meant everything.”

Let’s look back at Zach Lowe’s column, where he pretty much called this.

Matt Moore of CBSSports.com gives OKC a D: “The Thunder were held together by chemistry. I believe in metrics, and advanced analytics, and X’s and O’s and concrete things. But having players who loved playing together and “get” one another has an impact you can see in the locker room which carries over onto the court. OKC had that, and now they face an uncertain future. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. It wasn’t about being broke, but it was definitely about money for both sides. And now they’ve tried to fix it and an uncertain future awaits.”

I ended up being way wrong, but here’s what I wrote in August about the idea of trading Harden: “Because consider this: If the Thunder don’t keep Harden, the 2012-13 season is probably their best chance ever to win a title. While a deal getting Kevin Martin and picks or J.J. Redick and picks might benefit the team down the road, it will only hurt their current title chances. And after coming so painfully close to glory last season, you really think they’re going to take that kind of step back? If anything, it would be about one last run at it next season and then trying to recover in 2013-13 if Harden signed elsewhere.”

Rob Mahoney of SI.com: “Lest we forget: Lamb is the real return here, and could prove to be the stylistic bridge between Harden and Thabo Sefolosha that the Thunder have so desperately been searching for. Over the last few seasons, the shooting guard rotation in Oklahoma City has boiled down to a difficult offense/defense substitution; Sefolosha’s outstanding defensive work was undercut by inconsistent shooting, while Harden’s star-level offensive contributions were off-set by his lacking defensive game. Lamb’s skill set is complete enough to avoid such directional concerns, and offer Brooks an attractive long-term option on the wing without liability.”

Darnell Mayberry: “Again, I ain’t mad at Harden. I just don’t think it was the smartest move. He could be in for a rude awakening in Houston. Look at it this way. He’s now the Rockets’ franchise player. Does anyone think Harden is capable of doing for Houston what Kevin freaking Durant does for OKC? How about what Westbrook does? Not only must Harden shoulder the burden of being a franchise player, but he’ll now be expected to produce like one. That means nightly defenses designed to stop him, opposing team’s best defenders glued to shutting him down. Harden is still young, but I never saw him possessing that ability nor the desire to have that pressure on him. He was comfortable playing alongside two all-stars. It suited him and the Thunder perfectly. Now those days are long gone and he might spend the rest of his career wishing he could have them back.”

Andrew Sharp of SB Nation: “If the Thunder were willing to pay Harden $54 million over the next four years, they may as well have pushed it to $60. It’s hard to believe a $60 million deal was going to cripple them or complicate things any more than a $54 million deal would have. The only way to explain it is that the Thunder figured they didn’t need Harden as a part of the core, never intended to offer him the max and were assuming he’d balk at the lower deal, allowing them to retain more flexibility.”

Both Kevin Durant and Scott Brooks were on the sidelines last night in Norman when the trade broke. I was sitting in the crowd and it was kind of incredible: OU just scored to tie the game 13-13 and that’s when word started spreading about Harden. Pretty soon, there wasn’t much focus on the field anymore. And coincidentally, that’s when OU pooped down their leg. Sports, man.

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Bolts
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Fezzy
Fezzy 5pts

Let me know when you're here Jax

Jax Raging Bile Duct
Jax Raging Bile Duct 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @FreeFezzyFel/BIG3little2/K-Mart for Big Al here

hiphoopster
hiphoopster 5pts

I think Harden has become a bit overvalued. He fit perfectly with OKC, and in my opinion, needed the Thunder worse than they need him. With that said, the chemistry with him was obviously great.....but max deal great?

 

I think we get so caught up in what Harden did on the offensive end. His ability to get to the foul line was ery good, but we're getting a guy in Martin that knows his way to the line also. I would contend that his mid-range game was average at best....something that was exploited in the playoffs. Also, his off the ball defense left a lot to be desired. He did a lot of "ball watching" when he wasn't guarding the ball and was pretty ineffective at rotating to 3 pt shooters.

 

This deal really comes down to what Jeremy Lamb, Martin's contract, and those draft picks represent. I think Presti did the absolute best he could do with the situation at hand. At least now, the Thunder have a lot more options.

ascreamingacrossthecourt
ascreamingacrossthecourt 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I played around with some numbers and came up with a reduction in 5.3 wins for losing Harden. This is a rough estimate, but it'll only get worse with each year as Harden gets older. 

 

The question is, what moves do they make now? Kevin Martin is an expiring contract. Perkins is still making big money. They have some assets now in draft picks, Lamb, Perry Jones, etc. Do they just build with these young pieces or trade for assets? Seems that they'll have to stay with what they have because of the tax, but they may not be done.

 

http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2012/10/harden-exits-stage-right-enter-kevin.html

ou_sas
ou_sas 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ascreamingacrossthecourt Saw your post on my RSS earlier. Really enjoyed reading it. Thanks for posting here though. :D

ascreamingacrossthecourt
ascreamingacrossthecourt 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ou_sas No idea you saw it on the RSS, or that anyone did. Glad you liked it.

 

This is just such a big and intriguing trade it's fun to discuss. I can't wait to see how this plays out, but to console Thunder fans I can say I'm a Blazers fan. 

Legendary_Dork
Legendary_Dork 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

http://www.dailythunder.com/2012/10/chin-up-moving-on-from-james-harden/#more-22548

Legendary_Dork
Legendary_Dork 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

just in case you didnt see cleandoes

 

Stephen Jackson is not about this spelling
Stephen Jackson is not about this spelling 5pts

I might be wrong, but heading into this season (before the trade) I had the feeling that Russ and KD were ready to unleash hell on the league, and that James was due for a bit of a regression year. My guess is Presti felt the same way, and decided it wasn't worth it to eliminate roster flexibility to pay someone who would take away shots from our 2 best players. I love James, but I do think his max salary could be better used on someone to shore up our D or score in the post.

RRRWHOAAAA
RRRWHOAAAA 5pts

So whats the new minutes distribution going to be like? How much will lamb play? so so many questions

cleandoe
cleandoe 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

http://www.dailythunder.com/2012/10/chin-up-moving-on-from-james-harden/

Grolgar
Grolgar 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

This may have already been posted, but good draft profile of Lamb: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jeremy-Lamb-6380/ Make sure to watch the video.

Watson
Watson 5pts

 @Grolgar I just finished watching this and was about to post it. Some good things, some bad things, but he still has the potential to be very good.

This comment has been deleted

Grolgar
Grolgar 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @MisterJohnsonOKC

 No one said that. You just illogically think Harden is terrible and his loss won't affect the team..

This comment has been deleted

C-Wil
C-Wil 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @MisterJohnsonOKC  @Grolgar  @justin_mia fellas, fellas...lets revisit the issue once some games have been played at least. No point in raising up a big stink.  

O O O O O O
O O O O O O 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @MisterJohnsonOKC  @Grolgar  @justin_mia bigot is a strong strong word 

[censored]
[censored] 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

What was I wrong about?  And I'll be very glad to be wrong if the trade is a wild success.

Grolgar
Grolgar 5pts

 @justin_mia

 He adds very little substance to the debates on this forum.

Grolgar
Grolgar 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @MisterJohnsonOKC

 Um. No one said that either. Why do you keep exagerating?

[censored]
[censored] 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Nobody said that either, you're either a troll or just very dense.

[censored]
[censored] 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @MisterJohnsonOKC According to who?

Watson
Watson 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Serge is going to play a bigger role this year offensively. I think this team is much more balanced now with the addition of the two new wings and the return of Maynor. OKC is going to make strides defensively and be just fine.

[censored]
[censored] 5pts

They can't all play.

Watson
Watson 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @justin_mia But there's a better chance that at least one of them will find a way to contribute.

RRRWHOAAAA
RRRWHOAAAA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

NBATV says the thunder bulls game was being shown but instead im seeing the lakers clippers game... wonder if they switched it cuz of the trade.. i was looking forward to seeing james play for us one more time

cleandoe
cleandoe 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

It gotten kind of quiet in here.

C-Wil
C-Wil 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @cleandoe Yeah the Harden trade thing has been beat to dust. 

cleandoe
cleandoe 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @C-Wil Yeah. That's it.

Fezzy
Fezzy 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @cleandoe Yeah, its as if everyone got up and left

long arm of the law
long arm of the law 5pts

Jeremy lamb.  Really good size.  Takes ill advised shots but can make them.  Needs discipline in that regard.  Can be a good defender. If the team  can get him to buy into "the team" he'll be good here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw7RXNc75Rw

 

He's shown a propensity to be a me first guy but I don't see it lasting.  Not convinced K-mart should be the guy mentoring him. Thabo on the other hand is the perfect role model for the kid.

long arm of the law
long arm of the law 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

He had the size to rebound in college but looks like he chose not to.  A lot of clips show him leaking out on missed shots.  Thats not gonna fly in OKC.  Could be a scheme thing since UCONN usually had bigger guys down low than their opponents.  He likes taking threes but can't be considered a sniper.  35% career at UCONN but was worse sophomore year despite taking double the attempts.

Fezzy
Fezzy 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @cemitten Are you ignoring me?

long arm of the law
long arm of the law 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @FreeFezzyFel/JG22 what

long arm of the law
long arm of the law 5pts

He's pretty lanky.  Don't know enough about his agility to know if he can keep up at the 2.  I hope he can.  We need him to.

Fezzy
Fezzy 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @cemitten Hey, I'm talking to you

Fezzy
Fezzy 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @EatSleepThunder  @cemitten Not you, you red headed buffoon

 EatSleepThunder
EatSleepThunder 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @FreeFezzyFel/JG22  @cemitten Who? me?

OBoy
OBoy 5pts

 @cemitten he looks to me like he's going to fill out, not be skinny like KD his whole career. 

Watson
Watson 5pts

Now what potential star could that package of picks turn into? 

jder03
jder03 5pts

 @Watson Shabazz Muhammad or DeMar DeRozan. I'm kidding about the second one.

smallhandedthunder
smallhandedthunder 5pts

 @Watson Byron Mullens

[censored]
[censored] 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Kevin Martin is a good player but I don't know how he fits into James Harden's role.  On the court with Westbrook and/or Durant he can flourish, but on the court with Maynor and company?

 

 

O O O O O O
O O O O O O 5pts

 @justin_mia i see him working off collison screens, a lot of catch and shoot, along with the work he's done in houston, the three ball, getting to the line. i could see it working out. 

rednuht
rednuht 5pts

 @justin_mia Maybe the best part of the trade is getting rid of the "James Harden" role?

I'd like to see Martin or Lamb start.

[censored]
[censored] 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I'd really hate for this to happen after the fact.

rednuht
rednuht 5pts

 @justin_mia Me too, but just as with Green or Fisher it seems the only way to create change in Brooks is to take away what he depends on most, because he can't see when it's not working.

Keith00
Keith00 5pts

 @justin_mia Talk about the ultimate offense-defense swap. Martin can score and shoot as well as anyone, but can't defend a lick. Thabo kind of got that corner three going last year, but is generally a wreck on offense but ace on defense.

 

I'm really looking forward to how the rotation is handled. You can't play Martin with our lesser defenders, but you also can't play him as a true first option who creates his own shots.

[censored]
[censored] 5pts

May have missed it but what do you think of the whole situation?

Aren't
Aren't 5pts

 @justin_mia It'll be interesting to see how Martin responds and what kind of production he'll have playing on a good team.

This comment has been deleted

[censored]
[censored] 5pts

I do not have to factor that in - Martin does not have Harden's skill set handling the ball, or in the PnR.  Harden made guys like Nick Collison valuable offensively.  Martin, while highly efficient at his best, doesn't do that.

[censored]
[censored] 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Huge downgrade from Harden who can distribute and score.  Maynor's nowhere as good at PnR

RRRWHOAAAA
RRRWHOAAAA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @justin_mia hes an effective scorer. both he and james draw lots of fouls

smallhandedthunder
smallhandedthunder 5pts

 @RodneyRosavelRusanWilson  @justin_mia That's the question of the hour.  The second unit is going to have to be more disciplined this year.

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