Bill Simmons of Grantland says the Thunder should pay James Harden now: “Is there some wealthy maniac out there who would pay 30 percent over that Forbes sticker price without blinking? The short answer: YES! That’s why the NBA owners were so disingenuous during the lockout — they were crying poverty, and meanwhile, they had a waiting list for new owners! And we fell for it! Never again. That’s why I think Oklahoma City’s owners are full of an entire sewage system of shit. Let’s just say it wouldn’t be the first time. So don’t settle for less than what you’re worth, James Harden. They’re playing possum. They will cave. You will get paid. Let the dynastendery begin.”
Jonathan Feigan of the Houston Chronicle: “Even with Westbrook dominating the first quarter and Durant taking over in the second, the Rockets’ starters played the Thunder evenly while running few plays, but running the floor well. Kevin Martin played only in the first quarter, making 3 of 4 shots for his 11 points. The starters overall made 16 of 31 shots. At halftime, when Westbrook and Durant were done for the night, it was a one-point game.”
Darnell Mayberry: “Durant was Durant. Nothing new tonight and nothing special. He went in the post against Chandler Parsons a time or two and looked like classic KD when he sank turnaround jumpers. He only got credited for three rebounds, but Durant looked ready and willing to mix it up with anyone to fight for a board. That was a good sign. And Durant also defended Patrick Patterson in the post some, which might have been a scary sight in the past but KD held his own, which surprisingly included his position.”
Scott Brooks on preseason playing time: “Our three bigs are going to get plenty of opportunities to play and see what they bring to the table,” Brooks said. “And they’re going to get consistent minutes. Sometimes that’s hard to do. When you have a healthy team, there’s not a lot of minutes to go around. But as a player, you always want an opportunity and you want some consistent time, and those guys are going to get some good looks.”
Eric Maynor tweets: “Felt weird tonight at 1st but i got going…..feeling good…..thanks for all the love n support…..#realtalkBo”
Zach Lowe’s All-League Pass teams.
Trey Kerby of TBJ on OKC’s new unis: “Hear, hear. Besides the fact that the NBA 2K13 version literally says “Thudner,” do these say Thunder at all to you? Did you even realize navy blue was one of the Thunder’s colors? (It is, as a very minor color in their logo.) Outside of the font, which still isn’t great, these are pretty generic even though there’s nothing like them in the NBA, if that makes sense. Basically, any NBA team that wanted a navy blue jersey could have these and it wouldn’t look any different.”
Why good defenses don’t go for offensive rebounds.
Henry Abbott of TrueHoop with more thoughts: “The Heat and Thunder did have a low number of shots per possession. But that was not because they didn’t get a lot of offensive rebounds. It was because they had a lot of possessions end in made buckets and free throws. Those are two ways of ending possessions that keep your number of shots down — the make ends the possession before there could ever be an offensive rebound, and the free throw doesn’t even count as an attempt.”
Keith00
"Bosh certainly isn't rolling in the endorsement dough" He is lucky he gets anything. What a scowling mug.
Keith 00,
MJ of late Chicago fame was making more off of his endorsements than he was playing basketball, 2,3,or4 times as much. The only way to make more was to give some salary back to hire some other players to win six championships and become a superstar earning more than the whole team's salary, but not from the team. Tell MJ he doesn't have to take less and he will explain it to you. Each endorsement deal is more than a salary and that only happens if they win. Could the team win without him? He is gambling alot to find out. He bets five million less in salary for a hundred million dollar payout in endorsements' plus he stll gets the sweetheart. Oh say it ain't so. Curry would take it in a heartbeat.
@ctowles First of all, the only person in MJ's stratosphere right now might be Lebron, and even he probably doesn't make as much in current dollars as MJ did in endorsements. Second, how is Harden's marketability as our third best player at all comparable to MJ's situation? Bosh certainly isn't rolling in the endorsement dough like a modern day MJ. Further, MJ immediately jumped to 30 and 33 million dollars per year in his last with Chicago - I guess those discounts don't last forever.
If anything, Harden's endorsement prospects increase on a different team where he would be the focal point of the team and media attention. If you want to use any realistic examples, you should talk about Lebron/Bosh or Duncan (who all took less than they could have made). But even in those cases, the players were making 14 million + per year. There's no guarantee OKC ever wins a championship, no guarantee Harden doesn't suffer a career ending injury next year. If Harden goes down, his endorsement are shot, and suddenly every dollar he left on the negotiation table is gone forever.
There is one final point as well. Harden is 23, his agent likely does ALL the negotiating. And his agent doesn't give to craps about loyalty or fit, only about getting the most money possible for Harden and himself. Harden shouldn't be stressing over a contract when he has people paid to do just that for him. Taking less is a calculated risk, one he has no real incentive to make. He doesn't need to give the team space to sign other good players - KD, Russ, and Ibaka are already signed. He doesn't need to worry about luxury tax, that's entirely on the BILLIONAIRES that own the team. There's no more team-building to do at all, so the loss of mid-level or bi-annual exceptions is meaningless, we haven't been using those to date anyway (unless you count Thabeet, who is on a minimum contract and who probably won't even be in the rotation).
Keith 00
Let me guess Keith, you are in sales of intangibles which is what makes you impatient to close the deal. There is no moral high ground. There are good deals and not so good deals. I see a smaller chance of making a good deal now rather than later, after the world changes a few more times. Harden's Beard and winning personality should be worth more to an advertizer than a max contract. Harden is going to have more money than he wants to pay taxes on, and part of that worth is being part of the phenom of the Thunder. Be patient. Life is good. Harden is rich and the living is easy. A sweetheart would do more to sew up the deal in OKC than anything. How is that for moral high ground?
@ctowles Why should Harden take less than he deserves? Durant didn't. Westbrook didn't. Ibaka may have, but we don't yet know. Perkins didn't. I'm sure we would all like to live in a world where loyalty and fit are the main motivations in negotiations, but we don't. Loyalty is also a two-way street. Harden is worth the max - that's economics. If the team won't pay him what he is worth, where is the loyalty on their part?
I like my job, and my company. I've seen others move to different positions and be promoted. I do a good job, I earn my paycheck, and I expect within the next couple years to be promoted or to move to a higher paying position in a different department. I like my job and my company, but I'm not going to sit around waiting for that promotion all my life. If I can't get it here, I'll get it elsewhere. That's life. Mine isn't the only data company in the world, OKC isn't the only city with professional basketball.
And let me state that I agree there is no need to make a deal right now. If Harden is demanding the Bird-max, and Presti doesn't want to give it, then wait. Extending him now just means we would have a harder time trading him mid-season (Base Year Compensation rules). Also, there's no leverage to force a trade if we don't want to. It would make me happy if Harden accepted less money to stay, but in any way demonizing him for making the smartest financial decision possible is silly and hypocritical.
@ctowles Also, I think there was at least as much or more uncertainty in whether Russ was a max player last year than if Harden is a max player this year. Why should Harden take less or be traded when Westbrook did not and won't be?
Keith 00 said "Why do you care if the Thunder spend more on Harden? We are going to be over the cap and possibly luxury tax down the road anyway. As someone who is not really in charge of any of the money involved, wouldn't you ultimately just be happier with the best team."
Why do I care? It is an academic exercise like blogging. I don't think it is in the plan to go over the cap. The best team is created a number of ways. Money is just part of the formula. A work ethic is another. Talent is another. A Booming Arena is another. Any deal that undermines any of those considerations is bad for the team. Owners don't pay all the salaries. The fans pay a large percentage. Overpaying a team member is corrosive to all other team members. That is part of the reason we feed them breakfast and lunch. They break bread together before they punch eachothers lights out in practice. Teams have a strange chemistry.
@ctowles My point was to the fact that you implied a moral or intellectual high ground by saying "Bill Simmons is sure generous with other people's money." But the fact is, you are assuming as much or more about the Thunder's finances as Simmons (who likely has a better research department).
Yes, salaries affect the team both at a financial and chemistry level. But, that completely ignores the fact that Harden is completely worth the max in the NBA economy. If players are upset about that, they are in the wrong business. Diamonds have little practical value, and almost no practical value in a ring. However, the diamond economy is one such that they are aesthetically pleasing and highly valued for aesthetics. Diamonds aren't even truly precious commodities - they are purposely scarce and can even be made.
NBA players are diamonds. They are not paid simply on their production (there's no direct value for ppg, rpg, synergy stats), nor simply on their off-court appeal. Moreover, they are at the mercy of max and minimum contracts as well as constantly shifting scarcity on a free agent market. If every team was over the cap one summer, it would be a crappy time to be a free agent. Similarly, if you are one of only a handful of star players at a specific position, your value skyrockets. Harden is one of the top 3-4 SGs in the NBA. Even if you could clearly quantify how good players are compared to each other across position, the scarcity of SGs in the league means having a really good one creates greater matchup advantages.
Is Bynum really a superstar? He can score well enough, rebound well enough, and play defense with size. But he's no Shaq-Duncan-Garnett in their prime. But is he worth a max contract? Absolutely! There is such a dearth of quality centers in the league that just having the 2nd best one can have a gigantic impact. Harden is in that boat, he is the best SG this side of 30 years old, and a great player in his own right.
I think Harden is worth a max contract...but I'm still wondering if he's worth a max contract to the Thunder. Yes, Harden is the best young SG, but the Thunder already have two pretty good outside scorers. If they're going to pay a max contract, would the money be better spent paying for inside scoring, which would diversify the offense a lot more...not to mention make Charles Barkley happy?
@TaoMaas What's the right offer? Who would another team trade to get Harden - specifically who would be worth moving Harden in the first place?
Oh, I think we'll sign Harden, one way or another. There's no way Presti lets him walk and gets nothing out of the deal. I also think that just because a center isn't currently being shopped around doesn't mean they're can't be traded if someone comes along with the right offer.
@TaoMaas The problem with your theory is that we do not have a max-level big man on our roster that we are wringing our hands over extending. Would it be easier for OKC to pony up the cash if they had Kevin Love instead of Harden? Maybe. But would we also be bashing Love's defense and wondering if he was really a true max guy or just riding on a great team? Probably.
I'm not even denying that a star center may be better for the Thunder than a star SG, but I don't see any star centers on the market that we can guarantee will stay with us for the next 4 years should we choose. If LA wants to sign and trade Dwight for Harden, cool. If Bynum stays healthy two straight years and Philly wants to do the same, cool. But until either of those things happen, the only important point is what we have. Sign Harden for the max (preferably the non-Bird max). He's still highly tradable if a big man is on the market. Whereas playing extreme hardball (refusing a max altogether and trading him mid-season) makes the team worse off.
http://www.dailythunder.com/2012/10/russell-westbrook-signs-with-the-jordan-brand/
I really hope Liggins gets on the roster, I love his effort.
Can't believe Clay Bennett bought a team that was sold to him and didn't keep the team in Seattle when a new arena wasn't built in place of their god-awful, shatty one. What a crook! I can't wait until Chris Hansen brings a team to Seattle so we can watch them become world-beaters like the other Seattle sports teams. Then he'll catch some child-predators on a tv show and, ironically, get caught cheating on his wife.
@Arent This is dumb.
I know...can't believe Chris Hansen cheated on his wife either.
So anything important happen last night? Guess that I'll just leave this here...:http://flvrd.com/static/p/epic-wtf-robot-santa-animated-gif.jpg
@D@nny I don't know what this is...but I like it. Lol
Roster hopes
PG Westbrook, Maynor, Jackson
SG Sefolosha, Harden, Liggins
SF Durant, Cook, Thompson
PF Ibaka, Collison, Jones III
C Perkins, Aldrich, Thabeet
Don't pay much attention to the above order, bench would be Maynor/Jackson (whoever looks better out of camp), Harden, Jones III, Collison, and Aldrich/Thabeet
@FreeFezzyFel lazar is a guaranteed contract, he probably isn't getting cut.
@f5alcon Probably. If we're lucky we'll get rid of him
@OBoymuzik @PNT @FreeFezzyFel @f5alcon
Lebron James for a used Lazar headband: who says no?
@PNT @FreeFezzyFel @f5alcon years supply of All Sport and a box on laundry detergent sounds fair to me.
@FreeFezzyFel @f5alcon Right now I would trade him for anything. A year's supply of Gatorade...something.
Bill Simmons is sure generous with other people's money. If Harden is worth the max amount of salary why not wait until someone else offers it and then match it? The time we are talking about is a year. Alot can happen in a year that would change everything. It would give other players time to develop or flop. People get injured. I don't see the urgency to do something now. You get locked into a situation that changes. Look at the Green deal. Harden could shoot 30% this year. Someone could offer the first draft pick and their best player. Curry becomes a free agent wanting 8 or 9 million. Bellying up to the bar with thirty million is not the best way to be a man and guys with that kind of money know it. That is why they have it and Bill Simmons doesn't.
@ctowles Firstly, even if Harden has a bad year, the only way his value falls is if he get hit with a serious career-changing injury (think Antonio McDyess). One bad year will not erase the three good ones beforehand. Furthermore, just look at that Green deal. He was massively overpaid for what he actually does on the court. Look at Hibbert, Eric Gordon (coming off major injury), Brook Lopez (also injury prone), and Nic Batum. If there is any certainty in the NBA, it's that GMs will overpay for free agents. There's simply nothing short of catastrophic injury (whereby Harden becomes worthless to us as well) that will stop another team from giving Harden the max.
I do agree that if his agent won't budge off the Bird Rights max (higher yearly increases), then it makes all kinds of sense to wait it out and simply match a slightly lower max from someone else. True godfather trades (none of the ones Simmons mentioned) might happen, but might not. But to say he is being generous with other people's money is also silly because you are trying to be frugal with someone else's money. Why do you care if the Thunder spend more on Harden? We are going to be over the cap and possibly luxury tax down the road anyway. As someone who is not really in charge of any of the money involved, wouldn't you ultimately just be happier with the best team (which means paying to keep Harden)?
@ctowles Also, I believe that another team's "max" that they could offer Harden is actually less than we could offer him right now. So, other than the team's goodwill to Harden, why wouldn't you let him go RFA? Am I right, fellow DTers, about the particulars of the CBA allowing this?
Man, I'm becoming a big fan of this Liggins kid (aka "The Mindfreak").http://bleacherreport.com/articles/713861-losing-liggins-takes-the-backbone-out-of-kentucky
@BallSoHarden I've been a fan of his.I think he's a steal
@BallSoHarden id like to sign liggins cut lazar
Bill Simmons has come back to reality...
"Important note for this season: I'm giving up my four-year vow to avoid typing the word "Thunder" in an NBA column after the Sonics were hijacked from Seattle with the implicit consent of the NBA's commissioner, David Stern. It's just too much of a pain in the ass to keep the "Zombies" thing going, and more important, Chris Hansen is definitely bringing the Sonics back to Seattle. That's happening. Let's start looking forward instead of backward."
@Thunder Tim
I couldn't care less what he called the team. I'm glad he thinks he's so essential to the NBA that what he calls the Thunder actually matters.
@anonymous12345 @Thunder Tim He's one of the most popular sportswriters in the world so it matters to some extent.
@MisterJohnsonOKC @anonymous12345 @Thunder Tim I'm sure a lot of people care what he writes...
@anonymous12345 @Thunder Tim No but he's read by a lot of people so his opinion can be influential, at least in popular culture, and maybe beyond.
@justin_mia @Thunder Tim
How so? Maybe he can sway his readers opinion, but it would have no affect on the team. Ticket sales aren't going to jump up because the Thunder got Bill Simmons seal of approval
@anonymous12345 @Thunder Tim Exactly.
@Thunder Tim
Good, although, i loved the zombies thing!!!
(Tap, tap, tap..Is this thing on?)
Dear James: It's me again. You know who. Pumpkin day approaches in a mere 20 days. I think we can agree your performance last night was less than stellar. (No, dumbass, I'm not referring to your "VIP Bottle Service Highly Encouraged" party after you landed in Salt Lake City.) Your line in Hildago ain't exactly what we call "max-like." Damn, boy, you got outscored by that gap-toothed white boy Aldrich, HASHEEM and some cat named Liggins who I thought was a ball boy. And don't give me that "I didn't play many minutes" excuse. Did you see what Russell did playing 4 minutes less than you? That's what we call max-like. And from such a polite young man, to boot. Color-blind, but awfully polite. Now, for the last time, be a good boy and go see Mr. Presti, sign a reasonable contract extension to keep playing for these nice folks, and get your head in the game because the season is fast approaching. Bless you.
@OBoyzOld Man realtalkBo
anybody know if the preason is shown on dish? and if so what channel?
@thunderstruck87 Do you get the new Comcast Houston?
@ou_sas @thunderstruck87 I think I'm going to move to Houston, just to watch Comcast Houston! It will be totally worth it.
@ou_sasoh p.s. thanks for showing me that league man appreciate it
@thunderstruck87 No probs, dude! :D
@ou_sas
hmm great question... no idea
Is there any way Westbrook can develop into a better player than Durant? His starting to scare me in how good his becoming and whenever I think of OKC now and who to stop Westbrook is the first person that comes to mind.I think he can become more valuable than Durant because of how much pressure he can put on a defense by his penetration in the paint and his improved shot..
@kennygee90 I was kind of thinking along these same lines last night. The guy is getting better and better, and I don't see his improvement stopping anytime soon. I do not think he can be a better player than Durant. This being said, for any given team, any given night, the majority of teams will more than likely fear stopping Westbrook. Although, it's more likely because it is possible, while Durant, he's going to get his no matter what.
@BallSoHarden @kennygee90 Two completely different players and play styles. It's hard to say who's better because of this. They do different things for their teams. They also complement each other extremely well IMO.
@BallSoHarden True, Durant will still get his but he can sometimes score the most quiet 30 that you'll ever see a superstar score...OKC can win against a great team with a bad game from Durant, I'm not sure how they'd do with a bad game from Westbrook..
@kennygee90 @BallSoHarden I just think it's cool that we can even have this conversation without being thought of as crazy. "Hmm...who's the best player on our team? The 3-time reigning scoring champ or some other guy?"
@kennygee90
maybe better than mj but no not KD
@kennygee90 I don't think so.
@justin_mia Why is that?
@diddoff @kennygee90 @justin_mia Umm no
@kennygee90 @justin_mia I'm a RW fan but he' no KD
@dream catcher @kennygee90 He actually got better in the post as the year went on. .77 PPP on 115 plays. Not abysmal but something to improve on and go to now and then.
@justin_mia You sure Kobe was still putting up beastly numbers 01-03..But I agree Jordan is the better player regardless.
@justin_mia @kennygee90 what did you think of his short time in the post last night? looked pretty good. I know you really hated him there last season.
@kennygee90 I'm mainly talking about defensive rule changes. Kobe's most efficent and best scoring seasons happened after the 2004-05 hand check rule changes, and those seasons still weren't as good as Jordan's best.
@kennygee90 Westbrook did not really improve his overall efficency last year, though. He shot better from the field, but went to the line less. These things cancelled each other out.
@dream catcher @kennygee90 But his efficiency plummeted. If Westbrook can have a TOV < 10 and score at about the rate he did last regular season he'd probably be an MVP candidate.
@justin_mia The only wing defender in that era that would give Kobe problems played on Jordan's team (scottie pippen) so i dont know about the whole better defensive era thing plus (the 2004 pistons, the 2008 celtics and 1996 bulls) are the best defensive team of the past 25 years, Kobe lost to two of those teams
@justin_mia @kennygee90 i dunno about that, during the playoffs Westbrook had excellent ball control for someone with his usage.
@justin_mia true, I'm not looking at the player that he is now, Im talking about in the future, If he increases his efficiency, his basketball IQ and post game..I think then if not better than Durant then his equal..but then again Durant might just end up developing into a monster in his prime 27-31..so i'll chill with my comparisons for now then
@justin_mia @kennygee90
yeah back in the hand check era. I agree.
@kennygee90 I should say between the two, since Jordan is on another level than Kobe as a scorer since he scored more efficiently during a more difficult era defensively.
@kennygee90 @justin_mia This argument is.... extremely mislead. Durant is consistently at the top of the league in FTA. You can't possibly tell me that that came strictly from rip moves on jumpshots. Also, dribble penetration causing paint collapse is not the only way to put pressure on a team. You want a perfect example, watch about 3 minutes into the 1sst quarter what happens to our defense when the Rockets downscreened for Chandler Parsons using Asik with Cole on him and Martin on the wing. Cole hedges the screen up on Parsons, Asik steps over and backscreens for Martin, Kevin Martin rolls to the cup butt naked to catch and score the layup. Being a threat to score, whether it's from jumpers, dunks, or half court shots, is every bit as effective in the team concept as being able to get into the lane off the dribble.
@kennygee90 Kobe and Jordan took far greater care of the ball playing that style, which is the main difference between the three, and speaks to the gap in skill level IMO.
@FreeFezzyFel @justin_mia @kennygee90
not better than Lazar.....What's wrong with you?
@ou_sas @justin_mia Pau didn't have a pick n'roll partner last year..he was usually the one setting up bynum...Kobe and Pau's pick n'roll hasn't yielded the same results as the championship days...but Dwight is a monster, Him and Nash combo will probably be unstoppable this season
@justin_mia @Bsooreal @kennygee90 If Westbrook could score like Durant, I'd argue that he could be the best player ever.
@kennygee90 The Lakers were weak at Westbrook's position defensively.
@Bsooreal @kennygee90 If Westbrook could play the style he plays and score like KD does yes, he would be better and more dangerous.
@justin_mia yea but the ultimate hit or miss player are the scary ones..Jordan and Kobe are a great example..And I think his efficiency will keep going up...I'm more of a high motor guy rather than efficiency and stats and thats why I think MKG will develop into a star...I want a player who doesn't stop attacking hit or miss..You can be efficient all you want but When your team is down, I rather have Westbrook than Durant lead me..Check out the Lakers playoff games
@justin_mia @kennygee90
So it sounds like IF RussWess becomes more efficient then he'd be more dangerous than KD. LBJ is not good of the ball. He needs it to be effective. Thats more or less a dominant to non-dominant conversation. But isnt that an argument for nearly every player. If Lazar made 80% of his shots wouldn't he become a distraction with the ball in and out of his hands?
/devil's advocate
@kennygee90 I think you're getting too caught up in the aesthetics of their games and not the results.
@kennygee90 Teams have to account for Durant when he has the ball and when he doesn't. Efficiency is everything when the gap is so big between Durant and Westbrook - if you ask a team who would you rather take the shots Westbrook or Durant who do you think they pick? It's a no brainer. Sure, Westbrook is relentless and puts a lot of pressure on the defense on the ball, but he doesn't really do it off the ball, and he's not a very efficient player on the ball anyway. So you NEED a player like Durant next to him for the offense to work, the way Westbrook is playing. Durant doesn't have this dependency. Westbrook is the ultimate hit or miss player.
@kennygee90 @justin_mia Oh, and re: your boys: Fascinating: Synergy says 53 bigs had 75+ pick-and-roll finishes last season. Ranks in efficiency: Dwight 1st. ... Pau 52nd, Jamison 53rd. (Tom Haberstroh on twitter). Interesting numbers for you.
@kennygee90 @justin_mia (from 3 pt line to the cup, that is)
@kennygee90 @justin_mia You have forgotten the Junkyard Dog in KD then. He can take the ball to the rack just as easily as Russ (1-2 dribbles!).
@justin_mia Efficiency isn't everything though....Its all cool but Westbrook is relentless, and an extremely high motor player, reminds me of afro Kobe..Jump shots don't put pressure on teams and don't lead you to rings..Yea Durant shoots more efficiently but he doesn't put teams in foul trouble or make the game easier for his teammates..Durant doesn't come at you over and over again like Westbrook does..
@kennygee90 Westbrook's style is a very nice compliment to Durant's (and Harden's). Having a player use so many possessions and be only middling efficient would hurt a lot of teams but his style works here since Durant and Harden are scoring so efficiently next to him. How much of this is a result of Westbrook's aggressive nature is debatable, but probably some of it is.
@justin_mia @kennygee90
Westbrook a 5:1 TO ratio and over 50%FG and better defense on-ball
average 2 steals a game
@kennygee90 Westbrook will never approach Durant's efficiency as a scorer, the only way he can match him there is volume and then he's pretty much Allen Iverson and a detriment. Durant will always put more pressure on a defense because he's just more likely to make a shot. Westbrook has a better jumper lately but Durant was Dirk-like on his jumper last year. He shoots better from everywhere on the court, and is a threat on and off the ball (Westbrook, primarily on the ball).
Westbrook has the tools to be a destructive player defensively but he hasn't shown that in the NBA at all yet, while Durant's at least improving on the defensive boards.
I just don't see it.
@kennygee90 @justin_mia The same reason Darnell can't bring himself to say Reggie way better than Maynor.