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Lining Up: Evaluating OKC’s starting unit

by Royce Young on November 15, 2012 at 1:20 pm 762 Comments

Robyn Beck/NBAE/AFP/Getty Images

It’s a little funny to hear the Thunder talk so often about “early energy” and “bringing effort from tipoff.” That’s often the easy excuse for a slow start — that they’re flat.

But that’s also what one might call a trend.

Wednesday against the Grizzlies, the Thunder actually started well. The team will tell you it was simply because they brought more effort and energy. But in reality, it was probably more because the Grizzlies starting lineup matches up with Oklahoma City’s better than most. With Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol, it makes a whole lot of sense to have Kendrick Perkins on the floor. At least in terms of one end of the floor.

Remove Wednesday’s game and you know what the Thunder’s worst lineup has been for OKC this season in terms of plus/minus? The starting five — Westbrook, Sefolosha, Durant, Ibaka and Perkins. The first seven minutes of Wednesday’s game, the Thunder were a +3 with their starting five, and for the game, that lineup was a +3. Granted, the sample size is still thin with only nine games in the books, bit for the season the starting unit is overall a -7 in about 149 minutes.

By far, the Thunder’s starting five is their worst offensive lineup, with an offensive rating of just 93.0. Defensively, it’s pretty good, but scoring matters and OKC’s starting five is hilariously bad at it. It was an issue during the Finals, one that almost everyone recognized.

Before Wednesday’s game, I asked Scott Brooks about how much he pays attention to plus/minus lineup data. His first answer he was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

“I can barely keep up with my daughter’s sixth grade work and all these plus/minus things and my son, he’s already in the tenth grade and I can’t even help him out,” he said. “These lineups, plus/minuses and this and that, I wish I was smart enough to really look at it but all I know if Kevin has a bad minus, he’s still going to play the next game.”

But Brooks said he does use it. But he doesn’t rely on it. Doesn’t live by it, doesn’t believe in it enough to make decisions based off of it.

“I mean, I use it. I’m making a joke of it, but I use it as much as I can,” he said. “But I use other things, I can’t [just use plus/minus]. That’s so hard to do. If I knew the guy was going to be a minus I wouldn’t have played him. But if I knew that I wouldn’t do what I’m doing now, I’d be doing a lot of things and not basketball.

“I definitely see some trends and look at it and try and study it as much as I can and gather and internalize and much as I can, but I also have the eye test is so much important cause it’s real game stuff,” Brooks continued. “You don’t have time to look at the plus/minus in the life game situation but there are things that stand out and have been a bother. I try and mix things up and put another guy in or give an extra minute or two there with another lineup.”

It’s a little ironic that Brooks is a “feel” guy considering he coaches for an organization that is deep into statistical analysis. But that just shows that there’s often a separation between the actual court and the front office. Sam Presti uses stats to assemble a team. Scott Brooks doesn’t really use them to run one.

The Thunder’s best lineup by far this season has been the go-to crunchtime lineup: Westbrook, Martin, Sefolosha, Durant and Ibaka. Per 48 minutes that lineup is on average a +26.9 so far this season and overall, a +14 in 25 minutes. OKC’s next best two lineups: Sub Collison for Ibaka and that group is a +13 in 15 minutes and sub Maynor for Westbrook and Collison for Ibaka and that group is a +11 in 14 minutes.

Now, there is a danger in getting carried away with plus/minus, especially when the same size is this small. So what about last season? In 664 minutes, OKC’s starting five was a +81, the highest gross plus/minus on the team. In the playoffs though in 264 minutes, it was a -22.

I’m not necessarily advocating a permanent starting lineup change. What I would support is some flexibility with the starting five. Instead of being married to it, adjust and adapt.

One issue is, if you don’t start Perk, what do you do with him? Other than using him as a specialist in specific matchups, what spot would it make sense to bring him off the bench? The answer there is pretty much no spot. Brooks loves consistency and stability and he loves the toughness and presence Perk brings. But instead of stubbornly rolling out that starting five regardless of everything, flexing a little makes sense. The whole point is to win games. Not to make players happy or not hurt feelings.

Some people look at Perk and wonder why he ever plays. He has a very distinct value and ignoring that based on the box score is dumb. There are a lot of instances where he holds the Thunder back, but clearly this Thunder team is very good and that’s more because of Perk and less in spite of him. It’s easy to forget what a role he played in the four wins against the Spurs or how well he defended Andrew Bynum or how well he likely will defend Dwight Howard.

Before you yell about Perk remember this: The Thunder probably aren’t in the Finals last year if he’s not on the team. I don’t disagree that he should’ve played far less in the Finals, but that’s more Brooks’ fault and less Perk’s. You can’t put a player in a situation that he’s not equipped for and gripe when he doesn’t succeed. Doesn’t mean that you give him carte blanche and don’t adjust things though.

Brooks said last night he wouldn’t change the starting five based on data, and he shouldn’t.

“It would be a feel thing, if we’re not doing well or if a guy needs a change in scenery, but never off of a plus/minus,” he said. Basing it solely off metrics would be as silly as not basing it off them at all. Ideally, you use the stats to merge what you’re seeing and therefore, you come to a more educated conclusion.

One thing the Thunder have been over the past few years is consistent. Under pressure to insert James Harden into the starting five, Brooks remained defiant, and was proven mostly right by it. And it’s a little hard to argue with his methods — the Thunder were in the Finals last year and while the starting five performed poorly against Miami’s smallball, that wasn’t the really OKC lost in five games. So again, advocating for a change, I am not.

But it would be wise to keep an eye on these lineups. It’s actually far less complicated than sixth grade math. I don’t even really remember how to do pre-algebra, but I know that a +10 is better than a -10. And Scott Brooks should too.

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FF_pickups
FF_pickups 5pts

Great Article!  I agree with every single point.  Here's another way to say it, Perkins is a matchup play.   Brooks is too stupid to understand that just because Perkins is a good hammer, not everything else is a nail!

HerseyHawkins
HerseyHawkins 5pts

http://www.dailythunder.com/2012/11/friday-bolts-11-16-12/

BallSoHard
BallSoHard 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Game Day!

Perk-Punt
Perk-Punt 5pts

 @BallSoHard

 Will Davis play? i dont follow them much.

D-MC (DT Heavyweight Champion)
D-MC (DT Heavyweight Champion) 5pts

 @PerkPunt  @BallSoHard He's been active I believe.

BrightFuture
BrightFuture 5pts

We need to crush Hornets just for DT to become optimistic again

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @No beard no fear that might not be enough

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @No beard no fear

 You think that'll work?  :)

MrRaysian
MrRaysian 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Just watched all 3 games. I really love Kwahi. His going to stay good and probably be a star. 

And the Manimal is just so fun to watch... who said 2011 draft was a weak draft class

MrRaysian
MrRaysian 5pts

and also it's a stupid "what if" scenario but if Melo had the mindset of one of the true greats (i'll let u pick), how much better would he be come playoff time. 

His one of the greatest scorers in the league, can make nice passes, has frame and an rebound.

Daniel Hawaii
Daniel Hawaii 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

Royce, I'd love to see you do an article about Sebastian Pruiti. I remember being excited when we hired him, but so far, his film study must not be doing a whole lot since we look pretty much as stagnant on offense this year as we did last year.

I would love to know what Sebastian's role on the team is. 

 

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Daniel Hawaii Starting to look like they hired him just to shut him up. 

long arm of the law
long arm of the law 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 Not if the new lineup rotation rumors are true.

Jooseppi
Jooseppi 5pts

Gallinari has been dreadful this season. Eck. 

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Good Night, DT!

[censored]
[censored] 5pts

Faried had a higher ORB% in this game than our team has on the season.

Fisha Status
Fisha Status 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

so they let Miami dribble out the 10 seconds only down by 5? Reggie Miller could score 8 points in that span of time...

 

 

OBoy
OBoy 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @THE SPORTS OPRAH Gallo had just airballed a 3pt shot, Ty Lawson was 0-8 and Jordan Hamilton had just double dribbled. Probably good to call it quits. 

Fisha Status
Fisha Status 5pts

 @OBoy Jones III I guess....

 

:(

RRRWHOAAAA
RRRWHOAAAA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @THE SPORTS OPRAH George Karl never really expects his teams to win. its his biggest failing as a coach

RRRWHOAAAA
RRRWHOAAAA 5pts

McGee dropping 18pts in 21 minutes... nice for a bench big man

RRRWHOAAAA
RRRWHOAAAA 5pts

as in, I cant imagine any big on our bench doing that.. except maybe Perry if given enough opportunities 

[censored]
[censored] 5pts

 @RRRWHATEVER Enough opportunities = 25 shot attempts?  Perry Jones doesn't strike me as the efficient sort.  On high volume, anyway.

RRRWHOAAAA
RRRWHOAAAA 5pts

 @justin_mia no, i just mean opportunities to play in games, get more comfortable, continue to develop into that player. I'm not saying average that much, but he could definately put up those numbers once in a while, while Perk and Nick have almost no chance of doing so.

[censored]
[censored] 5pts

Faried stat padding.  

bmuelle22
bmuelle22 5pts

lmao what a sequence for denver

Fisha Status
Fisha Status 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @bmuelle21 why arent they making Iggy like...take shots. He's the...shooting guard? LOL

senseandsenescence
senseandsenescence 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @THE SPORTS OPRAH  @bmuelle21 I have a bet with Karl on how few shots he can get Iggy to take.  

 

Iggy's killing it for my team tonight.

senseandsenescence
senseandsenescence 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @THE SPORTS OPRAH  @bmuelle21 I know, but I'm playing in the gag league.  He put up 22 points for me tonight in a league where the the best player is averaging 22 pts/gm.

Fisha Status
Fisha Status 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @senseandsenescence  @bmuelle21 He's on my fantasy team too. 

supreme35
supreme35 5pts

That Lebron guy is kind of good.

bmuelle22
bmuelle22 5pts

 @supreme35 best player since Jordan

supreme35
supreme35 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

he looks so much more comfortable in his skin this season.

RRRWHOAAAA
RRRWHOAAAA 5pts

 @supreme35 more so than ever

I'm a Specialist
I'm a Specialist 5pts

What would it take to turn OKC into a destination city? Do we have like a Chamber of Commerce that works on enhancing the image and public perception of Oklahoma and OKC in general. LeBron, Wade, and Bosh all have PO's after the 2014 season and I'd like to convince at least 1 of them

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Perk90X It's getting there but right now our entire state has an image problem. We just erected a 10 commandment's monument at the state capitol that has typos for goodness sake. Can be hard to attract more people to move here with stuff like that making national headlines. 

[censored]
[censored] 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Perk90X Legalize marijuana, gambling.

Perk-Punt
Perk-Punt 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @justin_mia  @Perk90X

 OKC needs to build that new convention center with a large casino brand name, and allow Indians to own business land anywhere.

 

Get rid of its prohibition liquor laws;

 

Create a 2 story minumum for anything built downtow;.

 

OKC also needs to create a better public transportation system for the hot zones within the city. The light rail will be nice but wont really add value to the system. 

 

OKC needs to provide an incentive for investors to create retail shopping complexes downtown.

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts

 @PerkPunt  @justin_mia  @Perk90X  I know there was a study on it in the legislature that was more or less stocked by industry players who wanted to keep the status quo. SHocker, they recommended no changes. 

Perk-Punt
Perk-Punt 5pts

 @Old Man Game  @justin_mia  @Perk90X

 wasnt this on the ballet recently?

It should have been. entertainment business cannot thrive with those laws.

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @PerkPunt  @justin_mia  @Perk90X Changing those liquor laws unfortunately will require a vote of the people because its a state constitutional issues. Not impossible but much tougher given the socially conservative nature of the electorate here. 

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts

 @justin_mia  @Perk90X

 I think we have legalized gambling.

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts

 @ThunderChick2010  @MisterJohnsonOKC  @justin_mia  @Perk90X You can if you go up to the Northwest corner of the state. Woodward to Enid area. No Indian lands at all up that way. 

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts

 @Old Man Game  @MisterJohnsonOKC  @justin_mia  @Perk90X

Indian land, I know, but can you go 5 or 10 miles in any direction in Oklahoma without running into a casino?

Old Man Game
Old Man Game 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @MisterJohnsonOKC  @ThunderChick2010  @justin_mia  @Perk90X Well there's gambling out at the Racino at Remington Park.

tygablood
tygablood 5pts

@justin_mia @Perk90X Well one of those is already a check mark...OK has casinos all over the state currently. Fairly large ones too for any place not called Vegas

JeremyBrewer
JeremyBrewer 5pts

 @tygablood  @justin_mia  @Perk90X Any craps over there?

RRRWHOAAAA
RRRWHOAAAA 5pts

 @justin_mia  @Perk90X actually, if OKC became known for porn stars, gambling and legalized recreational marijuana, I'm almost positive you could be a hot destination. all your missing is a coastline

RRRWHOAAAA
RRRWHOAAAA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Perk90X you all would need to host the olympics and that didnt even work for Utah... maybe build the worlds largets something... or give tax incentives to something cool... maybe the porn industry

bmuelle22
bmuelle22 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Perk90X it would probably take:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrODTgBdL_Y

Trackbacks

  1. Thunder Player Power Rankings: Rolling | Daily Thunder.com says:
    December 10, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    [...] It’s still not one of the Thunder’s best lineups, but it’s definitely acceptable. When I wrote this thing, the Thunder’s starting five was their worst lineup, with an offensive rating of just 93.0. [...]

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