Finishing Left: KD’s new move

@AIaska @JUNKYARDDOG more time to pregame

 @ThunderChick2010  @cemitten  @AIaska Ahh, I gotcha now!!!

 @Tronchaser  @cemitten  @AIaska

 You were the subject of our idle conversation at the beginning of this thread . . .

 @ThunderChick2010  @cemitten  @AIaska I'm confused now.

 @Tronchaser  @cemitten  @AIaska

 But we're all on to you now.

 @Tronchaser  @cemitten  @AIaska

 Oh, no reason.  :)

 @ThunderChick2010  @cemitten  @AIaska Why do you ask?!?!?

 @Tronchaser  @cemitten  @AIaska

Spokane, WA! 

Tron, were your ears burning earlier?

 @BallSoHard  @cemitten  yes indeed!

@cemitten @AIaska He's in Washington I thought.

 @alvarex  @Lost Ones Are you in Sac-town?

 @BallSoHard  @Tronchaser  @okcthunder2013  @novelisticbee0 

*gasp*

Yes!

@Tronchaser @okcthunder2013 @novelisticbee0 her?

 @okcthunder2013  @novelisticbee0 novie trolls a lot. You have to watch her closely.

 @BallSoHard  @OBoy I can't see the Lakers or Rockets trading for him. The Grizzlies might and maybe someone like Toronto. 

 @Lost Ones I have a hard time ever seeing Ibaka being capable of being the #2 option on a title contending team and not an efficient #1 on a lottery team.

 @Lost Ones Can you provide examples of the type of player Ibaka could be? All the high end big men are decent passers, Ast % over 15 %, Ibaka is at 2.3% with KD, Westbrook, and Martin/Harden. Perk has an Ast % 7-9, even at age 21. The low Ast% is the result from Ibaka being mainly a catch and shoot guy. He lacks the feel for the game that separates the good players from the great players. Maybe in a couple of years he learns how to pass and put the ball on the floor, however by age 23 he hasn't shown enough of those skills to be able to project a higher offensive ceiling. He is a good defender that can be an effective catch and shooter offensively, he just hasn't shown flashes of being able to move to the next level.

 @justin_mia Bigmen rarely ever show Huge incremental leaps like guards what a terrible comparison you're a better poster then this. Most of the leagues best bigmen didn't become who they were until at least 25 years old, ibaka was hurt the most by the lockout because his inability to train with staff. Horace grant was IBAKAs age when he came to the league, that allowed him among many of the great ones to refine there game at the college level. ibaka will show a huge incremental improvement within the next 2 years.

Within the context of the offseason discussion a leap was developing new skills, i.e. Durant with his ball handling, passing, finishing with the other hand, post game, etc.  Durant hasn't been better because he's become a better shooter, he's made big leaps in his offensive game that has coincided with the addition of new skills.  James Harden last year made use of the sweep through to get to the line in an unprecedented way, rounded out his handle, added some isolation game, made enormous strides finishing every year.  Westbrook and his jumper, and finishing. 

That's the context in which Ibaka's 'leap' was being discussed.  Ibaka is doing some things better than last year but is he really adding new skills offensively?  Maybe incrementally.  But not that third year leap fashion we saw from the other three, IMO.

 @Its Raining 3's Thank you.  Grant did have a short peak, though.

 @justin_mia  @FF_pickups The advanced stats backup Justin. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grantho01.html, in terms of value, Grant in the early 90s was better than Ibaka is now, had one incredible season, but generally was at or slightly below Ibaka's current level. Grant had 4 times the Ast % that Ibaka has currently. Of course Grant was several years older. For Ibaka to reach the next level it is going to take a pretty big "leap" in his skill set, the point I think Justin has been trying to make. He just got better at the skills he already had, I think a leap is developing new skills. Let's be honest here, Ibaka will never be a dominant big man who you can run your offense through like Duncan or KG. But he will probably be in the David West mold with a little bit better defense. Harden in his last 10 games is averaging almost 30ppg on >45% FG at 23, and is on track to be the best SG in the league once Wade and Kobe retire.

 @justin_mia  @FF_pickups I'm pretty sure that's the definition of a leap. That's like saying, "Has KD really made a leap? He scored and rebounded in his rookie season, he's just doing it more often now"

 @FF_pickups Like Ibaka though, Grant struggled putting the ball on the floor.

 @FF_pickups If you ever get a chance watch the playoffs from 1991-1994 and keep an eye on Grant.  He does everything Ibaka does on offense with the addition of that high post triple threat.  Becoming a passer or instinctive with the ball in his hands is something Ibaka has to develop offensively in order to take that leap.  If he's not in a catch and shoot situation it still takes him awhile to think about what to do next.  His mind is slower than the game in this respect.  That's the toughest thing for him to improve.

 @justin_mia  My memory was that he was AWESOME but I was a stupid kid, lol.  Not sure that I can trust it.  I loved OU and he was Harvey Grant's twin brother so I thought he was the $hit.

 @FF_pickups  @okcjim Do you remember the Bulls from the early 90's?  Horace Grant was a key cog of their offense.  Ibaka is not in Grant's wheelhouse yet.  Grant was one of the better high post passers of the early 90's.

 @FF_pickups  @justin_mia  @okcjim Ibaka's 23 and he think he cant get better then horace grant hilarious. Not on the fact that ibaka promised to work with hakeem this summer who i think will help him DEFENSIVELY 

 @justin_mia  @okcjim Statistically, he's been better.  And at the worst, it is pretty even but Ibaka is 23!!!  That's the point, we are talking upside here.

 @FF_pickups  @okcjim I do not think Ibaka has clearly been better than Horace Grant offensively.  Grant was a very good shooter himself, a very good offensive rebounder himself, a better screen setter, and in another universe as a passer.

 @justin_mia  @okcjim That's your statement, he's been clearly better than Horace Grant and he's 23.  I think he's improved a lot this year and since he is so young, he has a really high upside.  Now I agree that he's not better than Harden, no question.  And I wasn't one of the ones who disagreed with you about that.  Where I stood that I still believe is that if I had to trade Harden, I would rather have a top 3 pick than what we got.  Based on the reports out of Washington that we tried to trade him for Beal, Presti agrees.  Based on the reports out of Charlotte that we turned down the number 2 pick, Presti disagrees.  I don't know which, if either, report is true.

 @FF_pickups  @MJOKC What's wrong with that statement?

 @okcjim  @justin_mia I'm wrong a lot.  I was very wrong about the Lakers, I was wrong about about Ibaka when he was drafted, I was wrong about DJ White... nobody is perfect.  But I stand by my statements about Ibaka during the Summer.

 @MJOKC  @justin_mia "I'm comfortable in saying that Kevin Garnett as an offensive ceiling for Ibaka waved bye bye to him a long time ago.  I think Horace Grant would be my pick there."

Here's the quote. 

I know. Just trying to keep it civil amongst Thunder fans

 @justin_mia  @okcjim  @FF_pickups he takes some hero shots; always has even in college he would take long 3pters some of the most difficult shots which messed with his percentages. being a hero will not be allowed here, his form is beautiful probably the best i seen in years.

 @okcjim  @justin_mia LOL it's the internet I'm not taking offense.  I'm impressed with the improvements Ibaka has made, and equally impressed with how the team is using him.  Disagreements are good.  :)

@justin_mia I honestly can't imagine that anyone would have expected more and haven't you said Thabeet would have much worse numbers if he played more? Btw I respect your basketball knowledge. You're probably the best poster on here, I just disagree sometimes. No offense intended with these discussions.

 @Lost Ones  @okcjim  @FF_pickups We're talking about his three point point shot.  Last thread I said that his shooting form is much better than his results so far.  Maybe it's shot selection and shot quality keeping his three point % down.  In the two Tulsa games I've seen he's taking some bad ones.

 @justin_mia  @okcjim  @FF_pickups he didnt shoot well in college? if im not mistaken he was one of the best shooters from 2pt land  over 60% in college. he's a good shooter  with an excellent form repetition will help him.

 @okcjim You'r e taking the discussion out of context.  I don't know if you remember the offseason, but there was a ton of discussion about Ibaka's ceiling vs. Harden's and a big contingent here insisting that Ibaka's ceiling was higher.  My comments on Ibaka were within that context, that he plateaued (especially relative to Harden) last year and was much less likely to take a big leap.  This was in response to people saying he could get a post game, or a handle or things like that.  

Also you say things like he's increased his rebounding but his rebounding% is worse than last year.  He's picked the offensive rebounding back up lately but still.  You're evaluating a leap based on total points and rebounds - but of course he's going to have more of those because he's playing more and involved more.  I don't want to discount what Ibaka has done because he has improved, but he hasn't taken the kind of leap that was on the table in the offseason.

 @justin_mia  @okcjim  @MJOKC have you been watching the shots lamb has been taking in the dleague or no?

You just don't like to be wrong.  Ibaka has made a leap from last year to this one and anyone with any common sense can see that.  Seriously, this conversation ends at that IMO.  I'm not sure what kind of offseason improvement you were hoping for but this team is not asking Serge to be Hakeem.  He's being asked to hit his open jumper and he's extended his range on that.  He's also increased his rebounding and improved his defense.  That is a leap of improvement in his game under any definition.  

 @FF_pickups No, Ibaka has improved.  He's made improvements to his awareness on both ends, he's better at finishing in traffic, and he's better at setting screens.  He's also managed to shoot high percentages on his jump shots when increasing his volume.  

 @okcjim  @FF_pickups The stats are relevant but that's not all the stats.  Ibaka's shooting better on higher usage which is incredible but it's not the kind of leap that was being discussed in the offseason. 

 @FF_pickups  @okcjim It's not a semantics argument at all.  I can see why you like MJOKC's comments because you both have a strange habit of dredging up huuuuuge discussions with many points, wrapping them all into a little ball, and presenting them as an absolute.  I never claimed Ibaka couldn' or wouldn't t get better.  That's just silly.  I did say his range was smaller at the end of his third season than it was at the end of his second, and I will stand by those comments.  

 @justin_mia  Justin, are you saying that Ibaka hasn't improved, that he is just in a better situation?

 @justin_mia  @FF_pickups

 So the stats are not relevant for you in this argument.  LOL

 @FF_pickups  @okcjim His upside after his second season was higher than after his third.  Because he plateaued in his third season. 

 @okcjim  @FF_pickups You're being myopic.  Harden went from a sixth man role player to running the offense for stretches for a Finals team with his two All Star teammates on the court with him.  He was unstoppable on almost every play type last season, finished at the rim better.  He took a leap in every facet of his game offensively.  Serge has improved but he's not doing the things that were discussed in the offseason.  You're taking my comments way out of context.

 @FF_pickupsI think everyone but Justin remembers that.  That's funny

 @okcjim  It's a semantics argument.  We never used the word "leap" in any of the debates that I had with Justin, I can't speak for others.  I just remember him insisting that Ibaka didn't have a high upside anymore...at 23, lol.

 @justin_mia  @FF_pickups

 He's shot well in the NBA so far. 

 @justin_mia  @FF_pickupsHarden last year went from 12ppg to 16.  That's a leap and 9 to 14 isn't.  OK

 @okcjim  @FF_pickups I don't know what he's going to do in the NBA, all I know is that he hasn't shot well in ollege or the D-League.

 @justin_mia  @okcjim 

So you are trying to say he's not a better player than last year?  He's just in a better situation?

 @okcjim  @FF_pickups He's done very well to score efficiently and do what he does, he's just being used more often.  His jump shooting is terrific.  He's responded, and the team has responded especially by making use of his talents much better.  

 @justin_mia  @FF_pickups

 He's shot well in his limited NBA action.  Do think he'd ever shoot 33 times in an NBA game?  Do you think he's going to shoot those types of shots when he's playing for the Thunder?  No way.

 @FF_pickups He's getting better but he hasn't made 'A LEAP'.  Harden's season last year was a leap, and these discussions almost always centered around Harden vs. Ibaka.  Ibaka has improved but this is definitely an incremental improvement and not a revolution in his game or anything.  You had posters here saying he would be defending centers full time, posting up, scoring off the dribble, passing, etc.  Those kinds of things don't happen overnight to a player like Ibaka, if ever.

 @justin_mia  @FF_pickups

 Wow, he hasn't really made a leap??? 9 and 7.5 to 14 and 8.5 isn't considered a leap?  You really like to stilck to your guns no matter what huh?? LOL

 @justin_mia  @okcjim All we are saying is don't count him out.  Westbrook is sooooo much more skilled than he was 4 years ago.  Athleticism, speed, size and character are far more important than skill at this age.

 @okcjim  @FF_pickups Why are you getting so defensive?  I'm just asking if he's supposed to be a good shooter why isn't he shooting well.  That's all.  He did not shoot well in college, and he's not shooting well in the D-League.  I'm not making sweeping claims about his future development.

 @justin_mia He's clearly improved his post game.

 @FF_pickups I'm sure I never said Serge won't ever improve.  I'm pretty sure what I did say was that a third year plateau probably means he won't make a leap.  I never said it wouldn't happen.  And has he really made a leap, anyway?  He seems to be doing mostly the same things, just more often.  Most of the Serge talk was centered around him beoming a post threat or dominant individual defensvie player.

 @FF_pickups  @justin_mia

 You may not have ever said ever but you definitely implied it.  Also Lamb has played in 11 D league games.  That league is for working on their game.  He may take shots in that league he wouldn't normally take.  He took 33 his first game.  You think he'll ever take 33 shots in an nba game?

 @justin_mia It'd be hard to find but when people talked about Serge getting better, you dogmatically said, it ain't gonna happen.

 @justin_mia You damn sure did.  You said that at this point, you expected the 'leap' last year and that he didn't make it so he is what he is. 

 @FF_pickups LOL I did not say that.  Stop putting words in my mouth.

 @justin_mia  You also said before the year that Serge won't ever improve. 

 @okcjim  @MJOKC Sure, can, but I'd be willing to bet most good shooters were also good shooters in college.  Considering that Lamb is also shooting poorly from three point range in the D-League, it's worth thinking about how good a shooter he really is, no?

 @okcjim  @MJOKC  @justin_mia I think the overall point of MJOKC was that shooting is the one thing that a player can improve on and that point is still very valid.