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Why aren’t the Thunder beating the league’s elite teams?

by Royce Young on March 21, 2013 at 3:02 pm 722 Comments
Screen Shot 2013-03-21 at 2.58.42 PM

Garrett Ellwood/NBAE/Getty Images

This season against the league’s top four teams — Miami, San Antonio, Memphis and Denver — the Thunder are just 3-9.

Against the rest of the league, the Thunder are 47-10 with a double-digit scoring margin.

That’s got some concerned. And for very good reasons. The Thunder beat up on bad, average and even good teams. They’re completely rolling about 85 percent of the league. But against the top 15 percent, OKC hasn’t had much success at all, especially lately where they’ve lost their last five against those top four teams.

(Now, the Thunder are 3-0 against the Clippers, a top four Western team, but also one than many agree is fool’s gold. Add in those wins and the Thunder are 6-9 against the league’s top five. Still not great.)

In those 12 games against the top four, the average margin is just -0.4 points per game. The total score of those 12 games is 1220-1215. Which is honestly appropriate, because in the losses, for the most part, the Thunder have fallen in tight games. In the three wins, OKC has an average winning margin of 17.0. They beat the Spurs by 14, the Nuggets by 20 and the Grizzlies by 17, all games in Oklahoma City. Which means they’re 0-6 on the road against the top four.

If the Nuggets or Grizzlies had that kind of record against other elite teams, everyone would be using it as the top citation to illustrate why they aren’t contenders. The Thunder seem to get away with it because that trip to the Western Finals is still fresh in everyone’s brain and they’ve proven themselves. Except, of course, that team last season was different.

So how worried should Thunder fans be? Well, consider this: Last season the Thunder were 8-5 against the top five teams (Spurs, Bulls, Heat, Grizzlies and Lakers). So they definitely had more success last season against elite teams.

Against playoff teams in 2011-12, the Thunder were 22-13. This season, the Thunder are 20-15 against (current) playoff teams. And there’s this note too, via an astute DT commenter: Last season the Thunder were 22-6 at one point against playoff teams, but lost their final seven against playoff squads.

What happened in those 12 games though against the 15 percenters? Just bad luck, or is there a deeper issue?

Nov. 1 at San Antonio: 86-84 (L)

The Thunder’s first game of the season with it coming just three days after trading James Harden. The Thunder actually were in perfect position to win this game, in possession of the ball with a chance at the final shot of regulation. A sketchy pass from Russell Westbrook and a lazy catch by Kevin Durant resulted in a turnover that led to Tony Parker nailing a game-winner. But even before that, the Thunder led 84-81 with 47 seconds left, but Westbrook blew an easy layup after a terrific pass from Kevin Martin, which led to Parker drilling a corner 3 to knot the game at 84-84. A game of missed opportunities for OKC.

Nov. 14 Memphis: 107-97 (L)

The Thunder got off to an iffy 1-2 start, but won their next five games to sit at 6-2 heading into a home game against Memphis. The Thunder rolled out of the gate with a big first quarter, but lost the game with a terrible second where OKC’s bench got absolutely abused. Memphis took the second quarter 36-15 after OKC won the first 30-20. The second half was won by OKC 52-51, but it didn’t matter because of the hole dug in those second 12 minutes.

Dec. 17 San Antonio: 107-93 (W)

The Thunder rushed the Spurs and used a big third quarter to inspire Gregg Popovich to sit his starters the entire fourth quarter. Serge Ibaka had 25 points and 17 rebounds with Martin adding 20 off the bench.

Dec. 25 at Miami: 103-97 (L)

Hard to forget this game. The Thunder were down 96-95 with 44 seconds left but a miscommunication on a double-team allowed Chris Bosh an uncontested dunk. A Durant jumper and a couple free throws from Ray Allen, had the Thunder down three with 10 seconds left. KD went for the hero 3, rimming it out, but Westbrook gathered the offensive rebound and fired another with three seconds left, while claiming he was fouled. He missed and the Thunder came up short against Miami, again.

Jan. 16 Denver: 117-97 (W)

Westbrook went for 32, Durant 20 and Martin 20. OKC led 67-47 at the half and basically cruised in for a 20-point victory over a lethargic Nuggets team playing a second game of a back-to-back.

Jan. 20 at Denver: 121-118 OT (L)

The Russell vs. Rocky game. The Thunder trailed by 11 with 3:03 left. Westbrook stole queso from Denver and then sparked a Thunder run. A layup, two free throws, a Durant 3, a Martin 3 and then finally the Westbrook game-tying 3 to send it to overtime. The Thunder failed to execute anything in overtime, making only two baskets. Part of the problem was that they kept setting illegal screens which resulted in horrible turnovers. Still, both Durant and Westbrook had 3-point attempts to tie, with Durant’s clanging short and Westbrook’s getting blocked.

Jan. 31 Memphis: 106-89 (W)

The first game for Memphis after trading Rudy Gay. The Grizzlies were clearly emotionally zapped and were missing their new players. The Thunder worked them over pretty good, but the Westbrook tantrum stole the spotlight and potentially opened the door for Memphis to go on a little run to make things mildly interesting late in the third. Westbrook checked back in and played very well guiding OKC to a nice 17-point win.

Feb. 14 Miami: 110-100 (L)

A horrific slow start for OKC that only snowballed as LeBron played a brilliant first half, going on a 9-0 run by himself to close the first 24 minutes out. The Thunder made a little push in the fourth cutting the lead to 10 a few times, but LeBron provided multiple daggers and handed OKC a sixth straight loss to the Heat.

March 1 at Denver: 105-103: (L)

Another painful close call. OKC led 99-96 with 2:49 left, but missed a couple jumpers as Denver regained the lead. Durant tied the game at 103-103 with 17 seconds left, but Ty Lawson broke Thunder hearts with a game-winning jumper with 0.2 seconds left.

March 11 at San Antonio: 105-93 (L)

A tale of two runs for the Spurs. Playing without Tony Parker, San Antonio withstood a hot Thunder start and outscored OKC 28-10 to close the first half, then withstood a spark by Westbrook to close the third by opening the fourth with another run. The Thunder just didn’t have the depth to hold up against the constant waves of San Antonio offensive pressure.

March 19 Denver: 114-104 (L)

A high-flying first half for both teams, but the Thunder failed to keep pace with Denver in the third as the Nuggets opened the second half on a 15-4 run taking complete control of the game. OKC couldn’t dig out and despite cutting the lead to five with five minutes left, failed to get the necessary stops to get over the hump.

March 20 at Memphis: 90-89 OT (L)

A blown six-point lead the last 45 seconds and a Marc Gasol tip-in with 0.8 left that resulted in yet another stinging close loss.

A couple other notes on these 12 games: In the losses, KD is averaging 31.5 points on 46.8 (88-188) shooting. Westbrook is averaging 25.1 on 37.0 percent (74-200). Martin is averaging 11.8 on 43.0 (31-72). Ibaka is averaging 10.6 and 7.4 rebounds. Doesn’t take Hubie Brown to know that you lose when your best players don’t play well, and while the Thunder’s four best guys aren’t playing bad, they aren’t playing great.

And I think there’s something to the fact that Durant averaged 20.8 shots attempts in those nine games, Westbrook 22.2. No, not because Westbrook took more, but because they’re clearly dominating the ball more as a duo. There’s a trust issue here I think. Without Harden there’s not really that third option that forces Durant and Westbrook into the backseat a bit. It’s their game now.

So, what did we learn here? Five of the losses really were on a knife edge and could’ve swung the Thunder’s way had a play or two gone their way. Obviously they didn’t and that’s the fine line between winning and losing in the NBA. Last season and postseason, the Thunder were the ones making those plays late in games and coming up big in clutch moments. They haven’t done it as much this season, especially against the league’s best teams.

Is that a Harden issue? Could be. Hard to ignore the fact he’s not on the team this season and when he was last season, the Thunder had more success in these situations.

The overhanging question to all of this though is if these losses are any indication of future success, or lack thereof, in the postseason. I don’t know. No clue. And really, we’re just going to have to wait to find out.

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criznazy53
criznazy53 5pts

The focus on Defense isn't there. Westbrook needs to take more pride in shutting down opposing point guards. What happened to the we are a defensive team talk.

ThunderWins
ThunderWins 5pts

 @criznazy53 You can't be a defensive team if your coach shows he doesn't care by playing two old guards that need to be hidden on defense.   When the combination of Fisher and Martin are out there getting beat it saps the rest of the team cause they have to play extra hard to just cover for those guys.

El Prez
El Prez 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Please....differential margins in this diluted NBA mean nothing. Won loss record means one thing....securing HCA. Home court advantage is a nice thing to have in your pocket.  To me--the verdict is still out on Scott Brooks. I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. He seems like a nice man. A hard worker. The players seem to like him. The year Avery Johnson got canned---it seems as if the Mavs set their record for most regular season wins. To date...Scott Brooks has indeed climbed the staircase as a post season coach. His Thunder teams have progressively advanced one step further each year. But he had an enormous built in advantage in that he was able to expose other team's second units by using James Harden as his sixth man. That built in advantage no longer exists. If this OKC team comes out of the West and just makes the Finals--it is a great season. fans should be fair in that assessment. If OKC doesn't get out of the West.. it's not a great season. Regular season means nothing in the NFL, NBA or NHL other than securing home field, home court or home ice. It's what you do in the goal achieving portion of the season which defines you. I would rank Scott Brooks as about the 11th best current head coach in the NBA. His playing of Derek Fisher is brutal. His bench management at the end of the Memphis game was brutal. Looked more like Scott Drew than an NBA coach. People though should step back and let this play out in the post season to be fair.

Zach99
Zach99 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @El Prez He's had 3 years to get every benefit of the doubt and nothing has changed.

 

At some point you just have to say he is what he is and fire him.  I have said many times and will always believe that resigning him was Presti's biggest mistake.

Blood-Game
Blood-Game 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Moving along http://dailythunder.com/2013/03/friday-bolts-3-22-13/

FF_pickups
FF_pickups 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Since 1991, here is a crossplot of the top 100 regular season teams in margin of victory

A)  regular season margin of victory vs. playoff winning Percentage

B) regular season winning Percentage vs. playoff winning Percentage

 

You can see that the correlation coefficient for either is pretty low, indicating that neither is great at predicting playoff success.

 

MOV R^2 = 0.1599

MOV R^2 = 0.1542

 

And by the way, anyone acting like a difference of .0057 is huge is a fool.

FF_pickups
FF_pickups 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

duh, I didn't supply the link, my bad

 

http://bit.ly/YwhL6K

Blood-Game
Blood-Game 5pts

@FF_pickups http://is.gd/tuPuW2

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @FF_pickups

You lost me at crossplot . . .

:)

Blood-Game
Blood-Game 5pts

@ThunderChick2010 @FF_pickups LOL! stop it. . .just stop it!

 I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’
I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’ 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

Congrats to TC for topping 40K on likes.  I don't even know if there are 40,000 things in this world I like, let alone comments on a sports blog

 I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’
I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’ 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

Not to mention you are closing in on the elusive 15,000/40,000/25,000 club, which I am sure has to be some sort of Livefyre record.  (If you don't get the numbers, look at her profile)

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’

So there's a club?  :) 

I never think much about the Likes Given, but I see I'm not too far behind our big boys: see-mittens and ou_sas.  Hmmm.  :)

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts

 @ I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’

 Thanks!  We have a few likable people around here.  :)

Blood-Game
Blood-Game 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@ThunderChick2010 @ I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’ sometimes i wonder if am included :)

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Blood-Game  @ThunderChick2010

Likable . . . tolerable . . . what's the difference?  :)

jk  jk

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’ That is a lot of clicks

Perk-Nightmares
Perk-Nightmares 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @f5alcon  @ I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’  haha i read that so differently.  the last word looked like.......di---nevermind

 

DXL
DXL 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

Recent NBA champions by ranked by regular season scoring margin:

 

2012 Heat: 3rd

2011 Mavs: 7th

2010 Lakers: 4th

2009 Lakers: 2nd

2008 Celtics: 1st

2007 Spurs: 1st

2006 Heat: 5th

2005 Spurs: 1st

2004 Pistons: 2nd

 

Takeaway: better be top 5 in scoring margin if you want to become a champion.

 

OKC is #1 in scoring margin this year. That gives them real chance to win it all.

 

Perk-Nightmares
Perk-Nightmares 5pts

 @DXL " Playing with your heart"  is what wins championships!!!

 

That is something to look at but its also a shocking stat. I don't think many people think the better you whoop up on people the higher you chance at a ship. Hollinger, maybe?  It is more of a coincidence since they are just the best team( most winning-est?) so naturally they should score more than the people they beat.  But good proof to back up your argument. 

DXL
DXL 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @PerkPose It's a well established fact upon stats people that scoring margin is a better predictor of playoff success than raw win-loss record. Close games are influenced by luck, how the ball bounces, while blowouts are an indication of fundamental strength.

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts

 @FF_pickups

And I wouldn't expect you to give Brooks credit unless you think he earned it, of course.

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @FF_pickups 

But what if we lose before the Finals and I sincerely don't think it's on Brooks?  I don't mind admitting that I'm wrong (got lots of practice there) but you already know it's against my nature to be critical of the team.

FF_pickups
FF_pickups 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ThunderChick2010 The only fair way to do it is to agree beforehand.  I don't mind eating crow but I need a fair chance to see TC eat some crow, too. :)

 

NBA Title -  I ay that Brooks overperformed and say he did a GREAT job

NBA Finals loss - It's a push, neither one of concede

Loss before the NBA Finals - You say that Brooks underperformed and say he did a BAD job

 

Whaddya think?:)

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts

 @FF_pickups

Let me think on this.  I suspect we have differing definitions of "underperform" . . . but don't crossplot anything yet.  :)

FF_pickups
FF_pickups 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ThunderChick2010 You don't have to hold me to that but you are more than welcome.  I don't mind being wrong, I want to be wrong.  I hope the Thunder win the title.  But are you going to come on here and say that Brooks underperformed if we don't get to the finals?  That's what I want.

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts

 @FF_pickups

I'm going to hold you to that.  :)

FF_pickups
FF_pickups 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ThunderChick2010 I'm fair about it, trust me.  If Brooks overperforms and wins the title, I will admit that I was wrong.  But I know that the apologists won't reciprocate if we lose out before the finals. 

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts

 @ I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’  @FF_pickups  @Blood-Game  @DXL

 It was pretty fun last summer.  :)

 I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’
I’m out man. Y’all n***** trippin’ 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ThunderChick2010  @FF_pickups  @Blood-Game  @DXL This place would be ridiculous fun all summer long WHEN* we win the title (*not necessarily saying it will be this year)

Blood-Game
Blood-Game 5pts

@FF_pickups @DXL because why waste your time watching when the playoffs starts!?!?!

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts

 @FF_pickups  @Blood-Game  @DXL

And I want video tributes!  :)

Blood-Game
Blood-Game 5pts

@FF_pickups @DXL with all the above, you should start your vacation planning from now!

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @FF_pickups  @Blood-Game  @DXL

Pickups, if and when we exceed current expectations in the postseason . . . I'm going to look for you to give Brooks and Perk their due credit.  :)

FF_pickups
FF_pickups 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Blood-Game  @DXL I think we have the best roster in the WCF but I think we will lose before the finals.  If we don't get to the finals, Brooks underperformed, if we get to the finals and lose, Brooks performed adequately, if we win the championship, Brook overperformed, imo.  I felt like we had the roster in the league both of the last two years but this year I think Miami's roster is better.

Blood-Game
Blood-Game 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@FF_pickups @DXL and all the latter will disable us from even getting in the finlas?

FF_pickups
FF_pickups 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

   @DXL I did a little work on this topic this morning just to see what's what.  And as usual, you are completely misinterpreting the data.  Yes, MOV is marginally better predictor of playoff success than winnning pct. but the R^2 value for either is less 0.16.  Since data interpretation isn't your strong suit, let me help you out.  What this means is that while MOV or winning pct. is an indicator of playoff success, there is/are other variable(s) which are in total far more important.  I haven't heard people on here argue that the Thunder aren't going to win a championship because they have a low winning pct. , they are arguing they can't win because their coach is a moron, their offense could struggle in the playoffs and Perkins and Fisher lack the athleticism to compete on the highest level. 

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @PerkPose  @DXL

Sure . . . this almost seems too simple to have a stat.  In a game where most points on the board at the end wins, it only makes sense that teams who consistently put up (way) more points than their opponents would have the greater chances of winning it all. 

But . . . what I wouldn't give to trade a few of those Hornet and Bobcat points for just a few more against the Spurs, Grizzlies, Heat, or Nuggets!

Perk-Nightmares
Perk-Nightmares 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @DXL  Yeah that just sounds like a statistical way to say the team that wins the most. It would be rare for a 55 win team to only beat most of its foes by and average of 3pts. 

Tronchaser
Tronchaser 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Envious of the Kens, not of the salad.  ;)

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Tronchaser

 It was still good.  :)

duhsweetness
duhsweetness 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

So what's been goin' on 'round these parts this week?

f5alcon
f5alcon 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @duhsweetness lots of the sky is falling, we are doomed type posts

duhsweetness
duhsweetness 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @f5alcon Not super surprising. Pretty disappointing losses, though. Glad I wasn't around for all of it

duhsweetness
duhsweetness 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ThunderChick2010  These are certainly dark days.

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts

 @duhsweetness  @f5alcon

When I offered smileys, someone had the nerve to tell me they were only colons and right parentheses.  It's been like that.

FF_pickups
FF_pickups 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

OKC is -13 and the o/u is 208.  I like Orlando with the points and I would take the over.

This comment has been deleted

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @MJOKC  @FF_pickups

 Maybe everything won't be fine, but I'll take a win of any kind tonight.  Everything most certainly will NOT be fine if we lose to ORLANDO.

Blood-Game
Blood-Game 5pts

@MJOKC @ThunderChick2010 @FF_pickups "because they are people who act like because we blow out scrub teams and increase out point differential we have no issues". --is that a shot at me?

ThunderChick2010
ThunderChick2010 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @MJOKC  @FF_pickups

I haven't kept up with the whole conversation there, but I thought the point was that the larger point differential was correlated with post-season success.  I guess if you combine that statement with a good dose of optimism, you could look like you were in denial about our problems.  Not that I'd know anything about that . . .  :)

Trackbacks

  1. New Daily Thunder.com Are the Thunder the most dominant team in the league? | New Daily Thunder.com says:
    March 26, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    [...] all that stuff sounds all great and awesome. But as I covered here, the Thunder have built that impressive margin of victory largely by beating up on bad, average and [...]

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