Ned Dishman/NBAE/Getty Images
At this point, who really cares, right? But from the department of “what if?” here’s a report from Michael Lee of the Washington Post that says the Thunder were turned down by the Wizards in a trade involving James Harden.
The Thunder reportedly were offering Harden in exchange for rookie Bradley Beal and second-year forward Chris Singleton. Why didn’t it happen? Because supposedly Wizards owner Ted Leonsis wouldn’t commit to a five-year, $80 million contract extension for Harden.
Prior to last June’s draft the Thunder were said to be interested in moving up for Beal, with a reported deal involving Harden. The Thunder scouted Beal extensively and had a few predraft interviews with him.
There’s one small issue with this report, and it’s the timeline of events. The Thunder may very well have been gauging interest throughout the league over the summer about Harden, but from what I’ve been told by those close to the situation, the Thunder really never decided on moving Harden until negotiations collapsed the week he was dealt. With the Oct. 31 deadline looming for an extension drawing near and it evident that the Thunder weren’t going to come to terms with Harden, OKC started the process of moving him.
Following the Finals, the Thunder were informed very early of Harden’s wishes for a max level extension, so there may have been some shopping going on then to sort of try and set the market. For example, the Suns tried to get in on the Harden talks. But according to sources, the Thunder’s first and foremost desire was to re-sign Harden. And going by that, it strikes me as unlikely that OKC would make a real trade offer before taking a real shot at inking him to an extension.
Maybe they were willing to part ways earlier than that if Beal was available. I don’t know that part of it.
After Harden was traded, Sam Presti laid out the events like this:
“The culmination of the decision to ultimately move in another direction — we got to a point where we were very transparent, very direct as we are with all of our negotiations with our players as to the fact we had reached a point where we needed to make a decision,” Presti said in October.
“We made a final proposal on Friday morning that was unacceptable. We then came back prior to beginning to execute trade initiations with another proposal. We were very transparent with James that if this is not acceptable then we were going to have to move towards making the best decision for the franchise given the fact that it was becoming a reality that more than likely he’d be signing elsewhere at the end of the season,” he continued. “Once that reality was met, as we have in the past, this organization turned the page. We started to focus on what was in the best interest of the program and focus on capitalizing on an opportunity to help us both in the short term and also continue to strengthen the future of the Thunder organization and building this program in a sustainable fashion.”
According to Presti’s account there, it certainly doesn’t sound as if the Thunder were offering Harden prior to negotiations going sour in October. Obviously those “trade initiations” could’ve included the Wizards, but the report says those discussions happened during the summer.
Once the Thunder made their decision to move Harden, they didn’t canvas the league though. They had a very direct idea of the kind of trade they wanted, and at the top of the list was the trade they got. The Thunder initially wanted a little more from the Rockets — including Chandler Parsons — but ultimately were good with the package.
Beal has struggled this season, averaging 11.7 points per game on an anemic 34.9 percent from the floor. Meanwhile, Martin has obviously fit in swimmingly, providing the Thunder exactly the kind of bench scoring weapon they lost in Harden. Considering the fact the Thunder are a contender, it’s hard for me to figure that they would’ve been fine turning over that role and responsibility to a rookie like Beal.
It’s likely a matter of perspective. The Wizards may have simply declined to even talk with the Thunder about a Harden deal because Leonsis wasn’t willing to pay the max extension price, and so that was seen as turning down an offer. Who knows. What’s for sure is that Harden went to the Rockets, and the Thunder are very happy with Kevin Martin and Jeremy Lamb.
Anyway if this is true Washington needs to have there team taken away from them as they obviously have no interest at all in winning. Its very difficult for me to believe that Washington turned this down because they didnt want to pay Harden 5, and 80.I mean they have to have somebody on there team if they want to compete.
Anyway like I said below this would have been a terrible deal for the Thunder because we are NOT rebuilding we ARE competing for championship. We had to have a legit established player back in the trade like Martin.
Yadda yadda yadda....IN PRESTI WE TRUST.
http://www.dailythunder.com/2012/12/wednesday-bolts-12-12-12/
@Legendary_Dork Bolts! \o/
"Considering the fact the Thunder are a contender, it’s hard for me to figure that they would’ve been fine turning over that role and responsibility to a rookie like Beal."
Again, this isn't the question. The question isn't:
"Who's better for THIS season for the Thunder?"
It is:
"Who's better for the next 5 seasons for the Thunder?"
If Martin plays one season and bolts then this was a terrible trade.
@FF_pickups
Except we are NOT rebuilding. We ARE competing for a championship. We needed a guy back who could hep us win a championship this year.
And if we win a championship this year it is very doubtful that Martin leaves.
@FF_pickups Not if they win it all.
@FF_pickups No--it's not. You're missing the point. Martin and Lamb are not the ultimate referendum on the deal; Serge Ibaka is. Presti made the right move in down the road team building by securing Serge first. KD and Russell's skill set overlap with those of James'. Not the case with Serge. As far as Martin resigning--I would think he would ask himself this in his own mind, "Can I conceivably extend my career by several years by taking a little less by leaning on KD and Russ for the next four years?"
Once you get the taste of winning in your mouth, it's like a drug.
Winning is fun.
@El Prez
so what percent chance do you think that Martin is in a Thunder uniform next year?
@El Prez
I am far less optimistic about resigning Martin. My guess is about 20% but I am the first to admit that that is just a guess as is your 50% prediction. I think we both would agree that Presti could handicap the race a LOT better than we could and that is the key. He's got the information and he should have an EXCELLENT feel for whether or not he's going to be able to extend Martin especially by the trade deadline.
Also, I disagree about Ibaka being the referendum of this trade. Ibaka is the referendum of whether trading Harden or not trading Harden was the correct decision. I am not saying that moving Harden was a mistake. I am saying that the deal that we got for Harden, (if Martin doesn't resign) sucks. Harden is a top 20 player in this league and Martin for one year, two protected first round picks and Jeremy Lamb is a big drop off. Change that to Martin for 4 years, Lamb and two first round protected picks and I think it's a great deal. To me that's the key.
@FF_pickups OK--he played his college ball in relative obscurity at Western Carolina. That same relative obscurity followed him from a team standpoint with both the Kings and Rockets, though real fans of the NBA knew of Kevin Martin. I don't know what his specific personal finances look like, but if he's managed his money well, then I would think 50% is a reasonable guestimate. Presti has two hedges for Martin though...Reggie and Lamb. If you plugged either of those guys with Durant and Westbrook ---you would think both of their games would accelerate in warp speed.
Again...the three most important words in team sports...time and space.
When you play hockey or basketball and have the luxury of being with space creators like KD/Russ or Gretzsky/Messier...that off winger or that off guard usually gets a smorgasboard of high quality chances. You want a pure finisher.
KMart is not about defense--Presti would just have replace his points.
But I hope KMart stays---he's a seamless fit for KD, Russ and Serge, plus he allows Thabo to continue to remain a vital piece to the entire puzzle.
@FF_pickups @El Prez I'd say 40%. If we win, someone will offer him another 8+ million contract. But, he'll have every other incentive in the world to stay. Money still talks, but I think he's old enough that the idea of starting for multiple championships is 40% enticing.
@El Prez That's an excellent point about Ibaka...and I think you're right. Serge's play this year is the real "win" in this whole trade deal. Now, we're just pluggin' holes in the roster.
@FF_pickups Hopefully Martin will resign. He doesn't strike me as someone who has been foolish with his money, so maybe he can afford to take a bit less than he might make elsewhere in order to keep making legitimate runs at championships.
@TaoMaas
I hope you are right but if he doesn't, we should be very critical of Presti.
@FF_pickups @TaoMaas Well , this is the courting period. Didnt they say Presti flew out to pick martin and lamb up? He might be just as worried as we are. His poker face is just better
@TaoMaas @FF_pickups 2yrs 20mil might do the trick.
@FF_pickups I do think that Lamb and the pick, with a CHANCE of retaining Martin is enough for a player that obviously with hindsight wanted to be the man. Would I have been alright with westy leaving and James staying six months ago? Probably, I was an irrational Harden Fan. Now, I see the wisdon in only having two high usage backcourt players.
@JeremyBrewer
We arent' guaranteed a ring. We have to make decisions based on chances, not on guarantees.
@FF_pickups @TaoMaas @PerkPunt
if it means a ring, keep him and take your chances.
@FF_pickups @TaoMaas @PerkPunt For me, I'm not terribly concerned, because between Green and Harden, he's not one to let players walk for nothing.
@TaoMaas @PerkPunt
Presti has to extend Martin before the deadline or trade him. He can't let a player the caliber of Martin walk for zero.
@PerkPunt Martin has never bolted for the money, I don't think, has he? I wonder if that was a consideration for Presti.
@FF_pickups Not necessarily, we won't know until we see how Lamb pans out and what becomes of the Toronto pick.
@Fezzy It's a fair point but still Harden for Lamb, Martin for 1 year and a Toronto pick that at the time looked like a #8ish type pick is terrible. Granted, we might get lucky and either Lamb pans out or the pick ends up being 4th overall but I am talking about the decision itself, not the the results.
@FF_pickups I'm sorry but for all the OKC fans out there that thought bringing in Kevin Martin to replace Harden was "terrible" must have never kept up with Kevin Martin's career. The dude can flat out ball.. It may be a slight downgrade but it is in no way "terrible"..
@ou_sas
Right, and Presti has a LOT more information than we do but given the information that I have, I think it's extremely unlikely that Martin is in a Thunder uniform next year. But again, that's my opinion and extremely uninformed opinion.
@FF_pickups @Fezzy I guess that depends on what odds you lay on Martin staying with the Thunder. If he's here for the next 4 years, especially at an affordable contract, then that'll definitely affect your decision. And maybe Presti felt good about those odds when he made the trade.
@Fezzy
If you bet on a 20-1 shot and get a price of 10-1, it's a stupid bet. You may get lucky and win but it's still dumb.
@FF_pickups Okay I give up haha
@Fezzy It's a statistical argument, not a results argument. Decisions should be judged on information available at the time, not the binary results.
@FF_pickups I'm terribly confused. You said:
Again, this isn't the question. The question isn't:
"Who's better for THIS season for the Thunder?"
It is:
"Who's better for the next 5 seasons for the Thunder?"
@Fezzy
No, I was saying that the #2 pick overall is usually better than Martin for 1 year, Lamb and the number 8 pick in the draft.
@FF_pickups I thought we were talking about the results since you said five years from now?
@Fezzy @FF_pickups Not to mention, Beal has been pretty terrible and can't shoot. It was the same in college, but everyone wanted those couple games in the tournament and his high school game to mean more. Beal may not be a very good player at all, so getting locked into him as Harden's replacement could be worse than Martin walking.
@Fezzy @FF_pickups Lamb would have to make a huge improvement to take on Martin's role next year sans help.
@PerkPunt @FF_pickups Oh I'm not suggesting he can take his role next year, more just in the "five years from now" approach
Haters gonna Hate.
Potatoes gonna Potate
Wise words from our very own.
@Tronchaser
puters gonna pute
Rooster gonna roost.
@Tronchaser - Camron (Dipset )
D' antoni was pissed beacuase a reporter told him that he didn't practice defense, and he said that he worked on defense for 30 minutes lol he is fucking ridiculous is like sombody here said is coach Antoni..there is no "D" LOL
@KeyserSo7e 30 mins? .................. *smh*
kobe is baffled as to why its not working..ill tell you why kobe, its the spaghetti monsters honest truth here. YOUR OLD, there are better TEAMS out there that know how to ball. Your..THIS IS MY TEAM imma chuck up 40 points a game ISNT team basketball, its not all gasols problem. You watch, gasol will play MUCH better on another team.
its not that hard to figure out lakers. your time is dwindling man.
@Legendary_Dork I like some Laker smack as much as the next guy and maybe Kobe's defense has taken big steps back, but offensively he is playing his best ball in several years, with a PER of 26! That is near the top of the league.
I don't think Kobe's offensive chucking is a problem. He's always been that way. The problem is no PG and no chemistry. Also, the Lakers are minus two "all-stars", are collectively old and are worn down defensively.
All part of the plan. See you in the first round. Lakers in four. This one's gonna sting. Your friend, Fletch.
@FletchMFletcher lolz
@FletchMFletcher 4 years? Marking my calendar...
I'm getting really tired of looking at Lakers box scores and seeing Kobe put up 35 points in a loss. I want KD to win his 4th straight scoring title.
@TempBoy Brandon Kobe will miss time this year, book it.
@JeremyBrewer
Consider it booked!
@TempBoy Brandon When the Lakers got Nash & Howard, I thought that locked up the scoring title for Durant. I'm good with the way its playing out though.
@TempBoy Brandon Give it time. Kobe will inevitably go through a stretch of games where he won't shoot a single shot in protest.
@TempBoy Brandon What is the stat now? 1-9? 1-10 when Kobe goes over 30? Please Kobe, WIN THE SCORING TITLE and miss the playoffs. Sweet sweet tears of agony for the Laker nation.
@Tronchaser @TempBoy Brandon 1-10
@TempBoy Brandon The more they lose and suck, the more kobe will assume he just has to score more for them to win.