Tibor Pleiss signs 4-year deal in Spain

Via Sportando:

Caja Laboral made official the signings of Fabien Causeur and Tibor Pleiss to a four-year deal. Causeur comes from Cholet with whom he averaged 16ppg in Pro A, Pleiss spent the season with Brose Baskets Bamberg winning the German title averaging 8.3ppg and 5.5rpg in regular season.

Pleiss, 22, was the 31st pick in the 2011 draft and was acquired by the Thunder. He left his German team which opened some speculation he might join the Thunder for summer league or maybe sign and play in Tulsa. But obviously he’ll just continue his development overseas.

Via Darnell Mayberry

Douse
2012-06-26 00:48:33
Monta is better than Harden and Gordon is a true point@Jooseppi
MisterJohnsonOKC
2012-06-24 12:34:46
He'll be here by training camp.
ou_sas
2012-06-24 12:34:51
Is it possible for him to come over for summer league anyway?
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 12:39:12
 @MisterJohnsonOKC Interesting analysis.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 12:39:13
This is good, we'll have a nice idea of this kid's progress without him wasting space in OKC.
diddoff
2012-06-24 12:51:16
 @ou_sas Darnell tweeted that he won't
diddoff
2012-06-24 12:53:43
Caja Laboral is a great club in Europe but it sucks a bit. The window for an NBA deal can still be open if Nazr gets another 1yr contract and Pleiss plays a good season in Spain. 
ou_sas
2012-06-24 12:54:23
 @diddoff Okay, good to know.
Tobi
2012-06-24 13:01:22
Pleiss was scouted by Rob Henningan. With him gone now, maybe Pleiss has lost his support within the Thunder organisation....  just speculation.
Prye05
2012-06-24 13:03:38
 @Tobi When he was drafted he was projected as being 3 years away from really being a contributor. Nothing has really changed other than the fact that Pleiss has decided to play for a better team. I'm sure OKC doesn't really have a problem as it doesn't effect their control of him long term and get a chance to see him play on a better team. He is still a really young player as he'd just be a college senior this year so having him develop isn't a bad thing. Especially since unlike Cole or others that need to develop he gets to do it with lots of playing time.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 13:07:34
Scola and Splitter both played for Caja Laboral/Saski Baskonia for years before heading to the NBA later in their careers. Both were more highly regarded than Pleiss is. Scola did not have an NBA opt-out clause in contract. NBA rules only allow up to $500k to be paid toward buyouts and Baskonia wanted $3 million. Scola was a two-time MVP of the Spanish league at the time. The buyout situation was why his rights got traded to Houston. I'm not sure how Houston, Scola and Baskonia worked the buyout out. Splitter opted out of his contract to come to the NBA. It's possible Pleiss has a similar deal.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 13:09:50
At least he's moved up to the Spanish ACB league so he'll be more consistently facing better competition. That can only help his development. 
Tobi
2012-06-24 13:11:14
 @Prye05  @Tobi It's def. good that he plays on a better team now. Both for him and the Thunder.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 13:21:54
So, does this more or less cement that Nazr is once again in a Thunder uniform next season? 
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 13:28:33
 @Old Man Game Don't think so.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 13:31:13
 @Old Man Game Don't think they two are that linked other than competition for a roster spot. A roster spot for Nazr will be about him getting minutes, I think, and Pleiss was bound to see a lot of the bench and a lot of Tulsa with or without Nazr on the roster.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 13:32:38
 @Old Man Game Don't think they two are that linked other than competition for a roster spot. A roster spot for Nazr will be about him getting minutes, I think, and Pleiss was bound to see a lot of the bench and a lot of Tulsa with or without Nazr on the roster.  I don't Nazr only signs with the team if he's going to play, not be 3rd string behind a young center (or two if Pleiss were on the team).
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 13:34:45
@Old Man Game Don't think they two are that linked other than competition for a roster spot. A roster spot for Nazr will be about him getting minutes, I think, and Pleiss was bound to see a lot of the bench and a lot of Tulsa with or without Nazr on the roster.  I think Nazr only signs with the team if he's going to play, not be 3rd string behind a young center (or two if Pleiss were on the team).  
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 13:35:09
@Old Man Game Don't think they two are that linked other than competition for a roster spot. A roster spot for Nazr will be about him getting minutes, I think, and Pleiss was bound to see a lot of the bench and a lot of Tulsa with or without Nazr on the roster.  I think Nazr only signs with the team if he's going to play and not be 3rd string behind a young center (or two if Pleiss were on the team).  
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 13:36:30
 @Tobi Hey if Rob is high on him than maybe he'd consider a package of the rights to Pleiss plus the 28th pick to move up to 19. We could most likely get Royce white there. 
Crow
2012-06-24 13:47:49
 @Old Man Game royce white seems like a player who has a higher degree of chance to be really good or a bust than normal.   i don't really want to research him as a person. if he still has significant issues about flying that would be a problem.
Crow
2012-06-24 13:49:29
 @Old Man Game if nazr were the last ranked big on the bench, i wouldnt have a problem with him coming back. if they just flip cole and nazr's ranking and playing time, i'd be fine with that.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 13:51:23
 @Crow I get that feeling too. High risk high reward. You just so seldom see the passing ability he has as a power forward coupled with that handle. If he could shoot and didn't have the off court stuff he'd be lottery for sure. Draft express has a really good video breakdown of his assets and weaknesses if you're interested.  http://youtu.be/usQJQi3IiE0  
Crow
2012-06-24 13:51:43
 @Tobi Hennigan got to jet all over the country and world scouting most of the draft prospects. You probably can make that pay off with real effort, but I think the value from such travel is over-rated. Just watching the tape is the main thing.
diddoff
2012-06-24 13:51:51
@Crow@Old Man Game  "Unlike most athletes, White's anxiety disorder has been a constant challenge, one he's learned to manage with professional help and medication.   "I'm never at 100 percent because my anxiety is going to take me down 25 percent before the game starts," he said. "Before the game, I'm still feeling sick to my stomach because I want us to win so bad that my adrenaline is getting going before the game even starts. It's hard to do it in front of 20,000 people. But I've trained my mind to deal with it.""   http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7505656/iowa-state-royce-white-battle-college-basketball
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 13:55:18
 @Crow  @Old Man Game A good degree of that is where he ends up. He's not a typical PF and he's not going to do well if he lands on a team where he's asked to be one. A lot of teams that late in the draft ignore stuff like that and try to fit square pegs into round holes.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 13:57:08
 @Crow Yeah but you know Brooks and his love of vets. Hate to say it but Cole may not see time if Nazr is on the squad. 
Crow
2012-06-24 13:58:56
 @Old Man Game thanks.   anthony mason is a pretty good comparison but i think barkley should at least be mentioned. sure it is a super top-end comparison but i think he is a bit closer stylistically to barkley. (my memory of anthony mason is pretty faded though)
Crow
2012-06-24 13:59:50
 @Old Man Game Cole not playing next season is not acceptable.
Crow
2012-06-24 14:00:07
 @Old Man Game but yeah you are right to worry about it
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 14:01:40
 @Crow Yeah, everyone wants to think about Diaw because of the passing but he's too thick to be Diaw.  This guy looks like he can legitimately bang down in the trenches.    On the anxiety disorder, I really think in light of what's been said by Nick about he lack of negativity here, that OKC could be the perfect place for him. 
Crow
2012-06-24 14:02:01
 @Old Man Game i try not to throw out big names in comparisons but my mind goes to magic johnson as well. maybe marques johnson too.
Crow
2012-06-24 14:05:45
i can understand minnesota considering trading 18 if the draft comes to form. that looks like th ebreak point between tiers. i could also see some team from 8-13 trading down if their preferred guy is gone.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 14:08:16
 @Crow What's your take on Draymond Green? Draft Express has us taking him in the mock. He's certainly a physical rebounder (and they always say rebounding translates to the next level) but I just can't see taking a SF/PF tweener with only a 33' vertical. 
Tobi
2012-06-24 14:08:29
 @Crow http://www.spox.com/de/sport/mehrsport/basketball/1201/Artikel/tibor-pleiss-interview-nba-hype-ist-auch-ein-fluch-brose-baskets-bamberg-dirk-bauermann-ricky-rubio-p-j-tucker-marcus-slaughter.html   In this interview Pleiss says, that after the lockout he was in touch with Rob every other day, and that Rob was the one who recommended him to the Thunder.   Don't know if scouts do that much travelling...
Crow
2012-06-24 14:09:18
 @Jooseppi  @Old Man Game yeah, i just checking where he would fit best. i kinda like him on phoenix or miami.
Crow
2012-06-24 14:19:17
 @Old Man Game i am not sure he could play a lot of pf in the nba. i guess as a sub he might be alright there but he might get blocked a lot. seems more like a physical 3. i am reminded of desmond mason a bit.
Crow
2012-06-24 14:20:48
 @Old Man Game they could do worse at 28. if they won't pay the price to move up 5-10 places, they are going to get a compromise player. he is probably the closest guy to royce white in terms of skill mix.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 14:20:49
 @Crow The rub is this guy appears to have really poor foot speed. I think defending NBA wings would be a challange for him. 
Tobi
2012-06-24 14:22:52
 @Old Man Game  @Crow If we use him as a PF, we could have keep D.J. White as well.
Crow
2012-06-24 14:23:16
 @Old Man Game if / when he plays sf, you'd want to play him with ibaka to help cover the basket. i'm not totally distressed by perimeter blowbys if you got a guy who can step up and force a tough shot or get a block.
Crow
2012-06-24 14:23:54
 @Tobi  @Old Man Game dj is a free agent but i doubt Presti goes back that direction
Crow
2012-06-24 14:25:59
 @Tobi I don't know how much Hennigan travelled the last year or two (with some elevation in his duties) but before that he was on the road basically all the time
Tobi
2012-06-24 14:27:03
 @Crow  @Old Man Game I reckon Presti goes more after athleticism
Crow
2012-06-24 14:30:33
 @Tobi Pleiss also says (so I am told) something close to this translation: "Who makes out a development only at the points and rebounds, doesn't understand what it is about basketball. You can provide quite a good performance without that it is statistically covered."   That is a Collison type perspective, whether or not Pleiss delivers on it.
Crow
2012-06-24 14:31:19
 @Tobi  @Old Man Game yes that is a big part of his picks
Crow
2012-06-24 14:32:29
 @Tobi  @Old Man Game whereas passing ability and proven 3 pt shooting and rebounding intensity are  not top criteria
Tobi
2012-06-24 14:36:16
 @Crow Yes that's true, it in the very same interview.
Crow
2012-06-24 14:41:49
drew gordon is a more traditional pf who seems worth a look, especially if they trade down
Tobi
2012-06-24 14:42:35
 @Crow  @Old Man Game intagibles or work ethic is also a  top criteria.   By the way, do you guys want Russell to work on this 3pt shot in the offseason (and take a lot of 3s next season) or do you want him stop taking 3s?
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 14:45:53
 @Tobi  @Crow I hadn't really thought about it. I just figured he'd improve there just as other aspects of the game. I know if he could shoot a decent percentage from there it'd be a nice weapon of course. 
S4TISF4CTION
2012-06-24 15:28:43
Oh thank God.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 15:28:50
 @Crow Yeah, his rebounding might make the jump. Could have a chance as a hard working guy on the glass. 
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 15:47:46
we need that presti interview 
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 15:52:55
im just now watching the maynor interview 
justin_mia
2012-06-24 15:53:20
 @Crow  @Old Man Game Anthony Mason's handle was a bit less stiff than White's is, but White might be a little quicker.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 15:54:59
 @Crow  @Old Man Game Mason was also an extremely versatile defensive player later in his career, he was defending SG's sometimes.
Prye05
2012-06-24 15:56:27
 @Crow What do you think the chances of OKC possibly trading with Orlando are? Cherington is probably in asset acquisition mode due to the uncertainty of Dwight's status. If OKC would be willing to trade them the Pick and some combination of Maynor, Cole, Pleiss, Cook, and/or Reggie Jackson would that not be tempting? He'd immediately bring in players that he had a large knowledge on as well as still keeping a 1st round pick at the point when players aren't sure things anymore. At their pick OKC COULD still have an option on some very talented Swing Bigs based on who is on the board still.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 15:58:13
 @Prye05  @Crow we need every player you listed they are all cheap contracts and are proven.
Prye05
2012-06-24 15:59:59
 @Tobi  At no point do you really ever want to take an aspect of a player's game away. Plus it's always good to work on technique and things like that. Instead of necessarily taking 3pt shots away from Russell it seems smarter to work on the situations in which he is shooting 3's. For example, a bad time to shoot a 3 is coming down 3 just a few seconds into the shot clock before a pass has been made and your defender on you. A better time to shoot it is kind of in the offensive movement when he might get the ball in a corner or on top after a kickout to the corner and passed again to the top. Shot selection can alter FG% as much as technique. One of the big reason the Heat hit so many 3's was because of how open they were. They didn't have a ton of forced 3's in the series (part of that could be defensive rotation, but part of that is how the offense works to create open shots for teammates... OKC taking advantage of the same thing would be huge).
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:00:26
 @Lost Ones  The veterans?
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 16:01:54
so will the season opener next year be a finals rematch?
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:02:43
 @OBoymuzik probably will be on Christmas 
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:03:11
 @justin_mia  As an Iowa resident, having watched a lot of Royce White... there are times when he disappears when he doesn't have the ball or the other team is either blowing his team out or his team is winning. If he's going to be used in the 2nd unit the swings of games can kind of depend on him as a leader (assuming the Thunder give him the ball) and that could cause problems occasionally. However, as seen in the Iowa State vs Kentucky game he has the talent to compete in all aspects of the game when he's tuned in. However, at this point it's more a matter of his mental health than his physical capabilities that i'd be worried about.
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 16:04:29
 @Lost Ones oh ok that makes sense...in Miami right?
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:04:32
What about three way trade, Harden to Charlotte, the number 2 pick to Chicago, Deng and Korver or Deng and Asik to us.  Interesting.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:06:38
 @FF_pickups There would have to be substantial pieces added to this deal to work $$$-wise.  Where does Luol Deng play?  We have Durant.  If we're trading for someone on the Bulls I'd want Noah anyway.  Harden to Charlotte, #2 and Perkins to Chicago, Noah and Korver to us?  Think we lose that trade on talent.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:06:46
 @FF_pickups The man idea of a trade at this point is to clear money. That doesn't really do that. Not to mention it severely cramps the guard rotation. As good as Deng IS, he doesn't create his own shot which is something that Harden does off the bench which is a huge asset. For as good as Asik COULD be and Deng IS... it's not the most ideal fit.    
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:08:43
 @justin_mia  Right now the Bulls are wanting to move Deng more than Noah from most reports and are looking for a lottery pick to do it. Us trading them Perkins isn't exactly giving them younger players.   For Charlotte, Cho said they are looking to acquire multiple pieces, which is where I see them taking the trade of #4 and #24 for the #2 over just a straight Harden for #2.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:08:47
 @FF_pickups Doesn't make sense to give up Harden in a trade like that. Too valuable, too young, too good.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:09:43
 @Prye05 They get #2 pick on rookie scale and save $$$ going from Noah to Perkins.  I don't think we're good trade partners with them anyway, and dealing Harden for the #2 is silly to me.
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:09:54
 @Jooseppi Don't be one of those fans.  So who do you think Harden is worth, straight up? 
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:10:30
 @FF_pickups  @Jooseppi Ill trade harden for the rights to beal and an additional piece.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:10:54
 @FF_pickups  @Jooseppi If I'm giving up James Harden I'd want an upgrade in the front court.  Trading Harden for an unknown quantity is just silly.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 16:11:23
 @FF_pickups  @Jooseppi K Love. 
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:11:47
 @Old Man Game  @FF_pickups  @Jooseppi *throws up*
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:11:53
 @justin_mia If you were just doing a trade with Charlotte for the #2 pick and filler what would you ask for?
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:12:12
 @justin_mia  @Jooseppi  you speak in generalities which is just silly.  Why don't you name some names.  In a vacuum, what do you consider his value.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 16:12:20
 @Lost Ones  @FF_pickups  @Jooseppi Not a Love fan? 
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:12:30
 @Old Man Game   be serious.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:12:44
 @FF_pickups  @Jooseppi i.e. Harden + Perkins for CENTER UPGRADE + lessor wing to replace Harden.   Harden + Perkins for Bogut +K. Thompson.
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 16:12:51
 @Prye05  @justin_mia Filler from Charlotte=garbage
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:12:56
 @Old Man Game   Love is WAY better than Harden.  It's not realistic
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:13:17
 @justin_mia  @FF_pickups  @Jooseppi boguts injury prone that's an even worse trade
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:13:19
 @FF_pickups  @Jooseppi That is the type of trade I would explore, but keeping Harden would be the preference.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:13:59
 @OBoymuzik  @justin_mia There is a big difference between not fitting a role on a losing team and not fitting a role on a winning team. I.E. look at Trevor Ariza as a member of the Laker's in a very specific role vs getting a payday to want a bigger more unrefined role on other teams.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:14:05
 @Lost Ones  @FF_pickups  @Jooseppi We'd be lucky if the #2 pick in this draft is as good as Harden is NOW much less in the future.
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:14:08
 @justin_mia  Bogut is such an injury magnet, I wouldn't consider that risk to be worth Harden, not even straight up.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:14:55
 @FF_pickups but you consider the #2 pick in this draft worth the risk?  Bogut at least has productive seasons under his belt - that's just an example of the kind of trade I would consider.  They would be few and far between since teams don't throw away good big guys for nothing.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:15:08
Beal, Barnes, and MKG all rate out very comparably to where Harden was when he was drafted. But again not every player develops... which is where what else you'd ask for is important.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:15:46
 @Prye05 It doesn't matter how Harden was ranked when he was drafted, we know where he is at now and we have a pretty good idea of his development range. 
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:15:53
 @justin_mia  I never said trade him for the number 2 pick.  I said that if Presti thinks that there is a guy we need at 2, then do it.  I don't know and I won't pretend to know that value of the players in this draft.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:16:19
 @FF_pickups One of what fans? Harden's only true peer among players in a similar contract situation is Griffin. Nobody else from his draft class or the draft class after has reached that level, in my opinion. I don't think there's a straight-up trade for him, especially when you consider how well he operates in his role with OKC. Harden + stuff for a quality big is the only trade that makes sense for him. Not the No. 2 pick, not a trade for the rights to Beal and not for Chicago's role players.  
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:16:30
 @FF_pickups So you're just speaking generalities then? :)  Trade Harden for the mystery guy that Presti supposedly likes?
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:17:14
 @Jooseppi  Blake Griffin, lol, okay.  You are one of those fans.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:17:16
Trade talks are heating up and free agency begins one week from today. Gotta love the @NBA offseason.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:17:35
 @justin_mia Well Harden was ranked as a potential all-star level player if he hit his current development path. Of the 3 I listed all 3 have the same multiple all-star tag... with Barnes and Beal potentially having more based on where they end up with MKG being the more immediate talent and higher growth curve in terms of added technique necessary.
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:17:37
 @justin_mia  When did I say trade him for the number 2 pick?
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:17:43
 @Jooseppi  @FF_pickups wow you guys overrate harden incredibly. 
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:17:43
 @FF_pickups Did you read that post and see me saying that I thought Blake was a straight up trade for him?
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:18:23
 @Jooseppi You said that they were 'peers'
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 16:18:31
 @Lost Ones and we know when the season will start!
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:18:50
 @Prye05 My point is we're trading a known commodity for unknown who might be better than our known quantity.  You don't do that in the NBA as a small market.  Harden is already good, we know where he is at.  He has more value in a trade scenario because of this.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:19:14
 @justin_mia  @Prye05 depending on hardens asking price it may be a reality.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:19:21
 @Lost Ones  Charlotte supposedly offered OKC the #2 pick and were turned down.    Other teams probably have some offers for him as well. It's not necessarily bad evaluation. However, there will always be some fan bias involved on a fan forum page both good and bad.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:19:51
 @Lost Ones  @Jooseppi  @FF_pickups I think you underrate James Harden.  He is indispensable for us offensively, the #'s back it up.  Harden, Durant, Westbrook core virtually assures us of a Top 5 offense every year without a great big man. 
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:21:08
 @justin_mia   So in a vacuum, what number do you rate him?  Still avoiding the question?
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:21:12
 @Prye05  @Lost Ones Trading players on the upswing can be smart since you cash in by selling high.  This might be smart to do with Harden.  But only if you're actually selling high - #2 pick is not selling high.  Harden himself was drafted #3, and he's exceeded (IMO) expectations to this point.  If we're talking #2 plus something else of consequence, then we can talk...
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:21:35
 @justin_mia I agree that trading him for an unknown isn't the smartest choice. I agree if he gets traded it should be for more established players. However, exactly what that established player is would be different depending on who you ask. I'd prefer that another member of the core (given Harden's current big 3 status) would also be a young player... however, a package of multiple players might actually provide a more stable cast if the Thunder are trading a big 3 member to go to a big 2 look from a financial and team stability model that would possibly make sense.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:21:39
 @FF_pickups What do you mean what number?  Relative to what?  I think Harden's already Top 5 at his position easily, and an All Star caliber talent.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:22:01
 @FF_pickups They are. Who else in the 2009 draft has approached their level? The closest is Curry, and Harden is better than Curry.  I also said, "I don't think there's a straight-up trade for him, especially when you consider how well he operates in his role with OKC." I think Griffin is more valuable than Harden and straight-up trade isn't equitable for the Clippers, but they are peers by virtue of their performance and experience.
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:23:00
 @justin_mia  You really don't understand that question?
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:23:24
 @FF_pickups Are we talking $$$?  I'd give Harden whatever his asking price is.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:23:41
 @justin_mia  What is something else of consequence (seeing as how Charlotte has the pick)... Tyrus? Augustin? Henderson? Kemba?
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:24:08
 @justin_mia  @FF_pickups  whatever his asking price is LMAO
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:24:24
 @Jooseppi and like I said, if you think that they are peers, then you are sorely mistaken.  They are in different tiers in the NBA hierarchy.  You are just a fan, that's all.  I get it.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:24:42
 @Lost Ones  @FF_pickups Harden will get a max offer if he hits RFA.
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:25:04
 @justin_mia Yeah, how much money do we trade him for that was what I was asking.  Seriously, just admit you are ducking the question.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:25:14
 @Prye05 Charlotte doesn't have any secondary pieces that would entice me.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 16:25:27
 @FF_pickups  Versus Blake? I think you're the one doing some overrating now. 
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:25:43
 @FF_pickups I'm sure this will get fun, but they are peers. I'm sure your hierarchy is accurate though. 
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:25:59
 @Old Man Game  Huh?  You think Harden is more valuable than Blake?
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:26:00
 @FF_pickups I'm not ducking anything, do you want to know his value relative to other players?  Seriously I have no idea what you're talking about.  I posted the type of Harden trade I would consider.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:26:08
 @justin_mia  @FF_pickups  yea in RFA thats the issue we can match it. why would you offer him the max, if he's possibly going to get max anyway he's not worth the max going by potential. you go into the room with the thought u can get him at value.
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:26:51
 @justin_mia That's what I asked, his value in a vacuum.  But you don't want to answer it
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 16:26:54
 @FF_pickups I think there is at least a worthwhile discussion to be had there. 
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:27:13
 @FF_pickups In terms of donuts to donuts, I think Harden has slightly more value in a vacuum than Eric Gordon.
Legendary_dork
2012-06-24 16:27:27
 @justin_mia  @FF_pickups mmmmmm doughnuts 
FF_pickups
2012-06-24 16:27:40
 @Old Man Game Yeah, no.  Sorry, there's not.  That's an OKC homer point of view.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 16:29:49
 @FF_pickups Blake's PER is 23.50. Harden's is 21.13. Plus Blake is limited defensively. I think it's close.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:30:02
 @FF_pickups  It depends on the team and the other parts. If you're loaded at guards than obviously Blake would have more value than Harden. However, if you were the opposite end you'd want Harden more. Take a team like NOR who would be getting Anthony Davis and should have Eric Gordon back. Which do they value more? Keep in mind that they are a smaller market too.
jtshoopsblog
2012-06-24 16:30:17
It's not as if he will get any minutes or the ball the way that the Thunder plays anyways.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:30:28
 @Old Man Game  Blake's more valuable for sure, but they are in the same class of player. Blake's rebounding is a major plus in his advantage.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:31:16
 @jtshoopsblog I don't think Pleiss is ready to contribute in any case, but role players are important. 
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:32:10
 @Old Man Game  @FF_pickups it's no where near close especially considering they're in two different positions, if the nba had an uncapped contracts blake would make 2x more than harden could dream in his career.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:32:34
 @jtshoopsblog He actually creates most of his offense on tip backs and does a lot of things where he doesn't need the ball to be valuable.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:32:42
I think there are some that don't appreciate the magnitude of Harden's season offensively.  Even if you want to minimize some of his accomplishments by claiming he was a third option, or played against scrubs, he still pretty much set a record for scoring efficiency as a 20+ USG wing player.  No matter what the extenuating circumstances, for a young wing player to show that much offensive maturity and poise is special - his Finals notwithstanding.  Honestly I think some are letting his Finals color their perception of his season a little too much.  The guy has a very solid record already of improving his game in key places and has a solid fundamental base.  You need to get something you know is going to be really good back for Harden if you let him go, since there is a good chance that he is going to be VERY good.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 16:33:17
 @Lost Ones  @FF_pickups Why? Because he can dunk? What else does Blake do particularly well? 
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:33:59
 @Old Man Game  @Lost Ones  @FF_pickups Blake is better than Harden.  He's a special player in his own right offensively, with some rare talents handling the ball for his size + athleticism.  
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:34:05
 @Lost Ones  Blake is probably the bigger name in the average household but that doesn't mean he's worth more in NBA front offices.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:34:15
 @Prye05  @Lost Ones He is though.
Legendary_dork
2012-06-24 16:35:43
 @OBoymuzik  @Lost Ones where did you find that at?
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 16:35:57
 @justin_mia I'd be worried about Bogut being able to return from his injuries.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:36:02
 @Prye05 blake is worth more you're silly.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:36:18
 @Jooseppi  If you look at a frequency chart based on position scarcity and average stat potential it is much easier to find a PF that could put up Blake's numbers than a SG who can put up Harden's. Double doubles are nice but they aren't exactly rare.
Legendary_dork
2012-06-24 16:36:47
 @justin_mia  @Old Man Game  @Lost Ones  @FF_pickups if he could hit free throws he would be amazing. but blake is lacking in certain offensive aspects 
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 16:37:01
 @Legendary_dork  @Lost Ones lol i just mean we won't be waiting for the lockout to end...it hasn't been announced yet
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:37:35
 @Legendary_dork  @OBoymuzik @alexkennedyNBA  
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:38:37
 @Lost Ones  @Prye05 Guess how many 20+ USG 6'8" or under players had better scoring efficiency than Harden in their first three combined seasons?  Two.  Reggie Miller and Charles Barkley: http://bkref.com/tiny/83dJG   Considering that Harden is also a very adept play maker, athletic, committed to getting better, a good teammate, and has the tools be a decent defender if he wanted to be?  You can't undervalue that.  The guy has a chance to be a very, very good player.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:38:46
 @Legendary_dork  @justin_mia  @Old Man Game  @FF_pickups Blake is a 23 year old powerforward, big man develop considerably slower than offensive players
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:39:13
 @Prye05 Blake has an incredible athletic potential. He's a good scorer (needs to improve his decision making, but most players do). He's an excellent rebounder. He's showing potential to be a great passer out of the post. His weaknesses are defenses and free throw shooting. One of those will likely improve immensely. He's a better player than Harden and more valuable. Not as much as some of these people think but more than enough to make it a certainty. 
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:39:50
 @Prye05  @Jooseppi Blake is a 23 year olds,  big man develop considerably slower than perimeter players
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:39:50
Interesting Harden quotes that have probably already been known but now officially sited.     http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8089834/james-harden-oklahoma-city-thunder-says-expects-sign-extension
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 16:40:16
I think my main issue with the hypothetical trading of Harden for a high pick or some other high talent plus throw-ins is mostly a matter of fit. Assuming the offense doesn't change that much, the main piece that we get in return would need to be able to create their own shot and be strong in isolation. 
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:40:40
 @Prye05 Yeah, it was in the last post about exit interviews.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:41:07
 @dancassidy35 What if blazers offered the 6 and 11 as well as wesley mathews would you take it?
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:41:28
 @Jooseppi I'm not saying Blake is a bad player... i'm saying PF is a much easier position to fill. Look at all the PF all-star caliber young players plus all the potential ones in each and every draft compared to how many all-star SG's there are that are young.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 16:41:44
 @Jooseppi  @Prye05 Blake's decent, but the idea that he's worth twice what Harden is worth seems only attributable to his dunking and the marketing that accompanies it. If you look at on the court I don't see how you could justify that statement made above. 
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:42:09
 @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35 6, 11, AND Matthews for Harden?? I would.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 16:42:21
 @Lost Ones I'd obviously have to think about it, but if its Harden for the 6, 11, AND Mathews?  Yea probably.  Highly doubt Portland would do that
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:42:45
If they threw in Batum instead of the 11 and Matthews I'd do that too.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:44:21
 @Prye05  @Jooseppi no its not in no shape or form is power forwards a easy position to fill PF/C are the most valuable positions in the nba. SGs are damn near useless right now.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 16:45:35
 @Lost Ones At the sixth pick, we get whoever drops out of the crop of Beal, Barnes, Robinson, Drummond, and MKG (no specific order there)
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:47:19
 @dancassidy35 exactly harden would be at the airport right now.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 16:47:26
 @Lost Ones  @Prye05  @Jooseppi See, Blake is a PF though. Unlike some PFs he can't double as a center unless you're going super small. His standing reach isn't sufficient and he'd therefore give up too much on defense. That's why I don't find him as valuable as some of you appear to.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:48:39
 @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35 I'm not sure I would do that trade, it would have to be contingent upon certain players (i.e. specific targets) being available.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:49:06
 @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35 I wouldn't do it but it's reasonable.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:49:23
 @Lost Ones  There is a huge difference between a serviceable PF and an elite one this is true. However, the league average PF is much closer to the elite PF than the average SG is to the elite SG's. Case and point there were 27 PF's that averaged 6 rebounds or more per game (the average stat)... there were only 7 SG that averaged more than 15 pts per game. 
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 16:49:27
 @justin_mia  @Lost Ones That's a good point. We wouldn't have much use for Barnes or Gilchrist
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:50:54
 @dancassidy35  @justin_mia  @Lost Ones Barnes would be a great replacement for Harden, he can actually create his own shot, is a good defender (or at least projects as one) and can fill multiple roles.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:51:56
 @justin_mia  @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35 Drummond would be a nice potential long term target at 6 but i'm not sure if he's worth Harden. However, having Batum/Matthews would somewhat compensate for the loss of Harden on it's own. 
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:52:44
 @dancassidy35  @justin_mia Gilchrist and barnes are both capable of playing the 2.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:53:44
 @dancassidy35  @justin_mia and even if they arent we already have mathews. 
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:53:58
 @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35  @justin_mia Gilchrist would have to improve his Shooting technique a lot to play 2. He projects much more as a slashing SF than a SG. Barnes could play 2 or 3.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:54:44
 @Prye05  @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35 Batum will have a new contract which will probably overpay him considerably.  If you make a trade for picks like this you have to have targets for those picks.  We just made a Finals, you don't trade your 3rd best player for the possibility of selecting who you're targeting.  A trade could be completed contingent upon a specific player being available at #6, but #11 would be a total crap shoot.  You're trading Harden for your target at #6, and pretty much who you hope will be there at #11.  Plus Batum and his $8-9m a year?  I don't know about that one.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 16:55:49
 @Prye05  @dancassidy35  @justin_mia  I agree his shooting motions is too slow , this is all hypothetical though lol 
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 16:57:44
I feel as though we defended James' scoring rather well. Some of these suggestions to get rid of Harden in exchange for a defensive oriented wing player are strange, and we didn't have them before the Miami series. James wasn't so hard to cover for the team to make that change, in my opinion. He shot well in the series (47 percent) but below his season and playoff averages (53 percent and 50 percent, respectively). Scored less than his playoff average.  Issue was the defensive schemes that left guys open for LeBron and company to find, not defending LeBron. 
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:57:51
 @Jooseppi  @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35 Wesley Matthews is a spot up shooter earning $20m over the next three seasons.  Don't see the appeal there.
Prye05
2012-06-24 16:58:01
 @justin_mia  @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35 But Batum at 8-9 Mil plus a top pick compared to a good player at 6 for less presumably than what Harden will command a year?
Legendary_dork
2012-06-24 16:58:40
 @Jooseppi leaving people open for 3 pointers killed us, i mean miller was freaking 7-7 from 3 at one point  ~.~
justin_mia
2012-06-24 16:59:50
 @Prye05  @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35 Batum can't play SG all the time, he's a backup on our team.  It'd be Jeff Green all over again.  I don't like the fit at all.  Batum + #6 may collectively be better than Harden but how much do they get on the court?  Why not have more consolidated into one player (Harden)?  I've always thought Batum overrated anyway.
Legendary_dork
2012-06-24 17:00:13
and i know its all fun and games dealing this trade thing with harden but, im telling you right now, harden isnt going ANYWHERE,  just like *un fortunately  *  brooks will be here to. unless jackson decides to come out of retirement.
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:00:14
 @Legendary_dork  @Jooseppi Part of the reason they were open is the amount of help necessary to keep Lebron and Wade away from the basket. One of the things the Thunder did though was that they were shading out on Lebron and Wade much more than they always needed to. Turning Lebron and Wade into shooters over drivers is the way to really defend them. Sure they might put up a few good games... but their percentages 15 ft and out is much lower than their percentages 5 ft and in.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:01:03
 @Legendary_dork  @Jooseppi Scott Brooks panicked after game 2.  MIami started Bosh for Haslem and massacred our starters, leading to a big game offensively for the Heat.  Durant got into foul trouble.  Brooks overreacts and starts doubling LeBron.  Worst thing to do.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:01:17
 @Jooseppi I always had a issue with james defense on the perimeter there have been millions of times he has let a 3pt shooter at that a high percentage shooter uncontested.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:01:27
 @Prye05  @Legendary_dork It wasn't necessary. You can play both of them straight up.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:01:34
 @Lost Ones OK.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:02:21
 @Legendary_dork Yea I'm 85 percent sure Harden will be back
Legendary_dork
2012-06-24 17:02:30
 @justin_mia  @Jooseppi translation justin. brooks is a MORON and though an injured perk could still do something.  ibaka on bosh is what should of happen. or collison
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:02:36
 @justin_mia  I would argue that Batum can cover a SG defensively but agree he doesn't necessarily create shots as much. However, he could make Thabo expendable which could clear space for another bench scoring option. At #6 if Barnes or Drummond fell they have a lot of long term potential but yes the Thunder need immediate potential.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:02:37
 @Lost Ones  @Jooseppi This is common for young players, especially a player like Harden who played gimmick defense in college.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:03:19
 @justin_mia  @Legendary_dork  @Jooseppi putting durant on chalmers was a huge mistake as well it took away durants ability to double as well as hit the boards. plus durant essentially played off him anyway when chalmers is terrible off the dribble.
Legendary_dork
2012-06-24 17:03:30
 @dancassidy35 im 323333343434343 % sure he will be back.   random numbers for the win
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:06:03
 @Prye05  @justin_mia Sefolosha is better for this team at his contract than what Batum would require to stay. Both with money and on the court.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:07:09
 @justin_mia  @Jooseppi he played in a zone?
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:07:43
 @justin_mia  @Lost Ones  This is where I think a missed off-season hurt OKC last year and hopefully really benefits them this year. HOPEFULLY the coaching staff looks as some of the flaws they had defensively in various situations and by individual players and works to address those. It's not necessarily a huge overall in my opinion just some little things here or there but a few possessions a game make a big difference across a season.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:08:00
 @Lost Ones  @Jooseppi Yes ASU played zone defense.
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:08:26
 @Lost Ones  @justin_mia  @Jooseppi He did play in a zone that was actually built to try and protect him offensively and let him try to make a lot of plays where he'd reach in on dribblers or into jumping lanes.
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:10:13
 @Jooseppi  @justin_mia If you are trading Harden and Batum is making less money than what Harden is expected to make than Sefolosha's contract value isn't necessarily as big of a deal because you'd already be saving 3+ million. If trading Sefolosha clears up another 2-3 million that's 6 million that can go towards re-signing Ibaka AND Maynor and still possibly bringing in a veteran scorer for the bench.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:11:12
 @Prye05  @justin_mia That's the thing though, I don't think Batum is worth what he is likely to get. He's a fine player but he's going to get overpaid. I don't think the value is there.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:11:59
So with the 6th pick in the discussed Portland trade, we would probably pick either Barnes or Drummond. Anybody have any thoughts on who we'd grab with the 11th pick?
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:13:23
Hell if he drops, why not Henson haha
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:13:45
 @Jooseppi  @justin_mia He won't really get overpaid if he signs an extension with the team that has him. If he reaches FA then obviously he gets overpaid because that's how competition works. He can still technically sign an extension there is just a lot of teams that wait until actual FA starts to do such things. Still even at 8 mil a year it's really not that unreasonable... considering Harden could see 12-13 mil AND Lou Williams is looking at 8-9 mil himself, I would much rather have a young Batum at that price than Williams or spending extra money.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:14:35
 @Prye05  @justin_mia Batum is a RFA and will get an $11 mil a year offer from somebody. 
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:15:15
 @dancassidy35 The Thunder could always turn around and re-package the pick to pick up additional pieces (Possibly taking a pick next year and a slightly lower pick this year) or could shoot for a really high upside guy like Perry Jones or go after another project center like Leonard.
AllDae
2012-06-24 17:15:41
just went 71-11 with OKC in 2K. ok fine its 2k but still
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:15:59
 @Jooseppi  @justin_mia He can still sign an extension before FA opens up. His agent might not want him to but in this case it could be a clause mandated by the Thunder.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:16:15
Via Royce on Twitter: "Presti on the Phil Jackson/Jeff Van Gundy rumors: "To me, it's rubbish."
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:16:19
I have a feeling if Harden was significantly more inefficient but scored 20+ a game, people wouldn't be talking like this.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:16:29
Via Royce on Twitter: Presti on the Phil Jackson/Jeff Van Gundy rumors: "To me, it's rubbish."  
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:16:29
 @dancassidy35 perry jones III
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:16:30
Lol. I hope Harden reads all this trade talk from y'all and leaves. Then you guys would see what he meant to the team. Think it's a coincidence that his first bad series was lost 4-1? Thank god Presti is in charge here and not some armchair GMs.   Batum? Draft picks? Seriously? Lol.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:17:24
 @wannabeGM discussion has nothing to do with his series 
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:17:27
 @wannabeGM I think that everyone hear wants Harden to stay. Its just interesting to think of different scenarios and ways things could pan out. 
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:18:46
 @dancassidy35 This team will NOT improve by trading Harden (for anything realistic).
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:20:01
 @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM It's interesting but I think talks about Ibaka are much more realistic.  It would be tough to get fair value out of Harden since he's going to be eligible for an extension (no longer affordable) and doesn't have the accolades someone like Westbrook has.  So he's in that weird gray area right now where you're probably not going to find acceptable value.
anonymous12345
2012-06-24 17:20:40
 @dancassidy35 I imagine its something someone leaked out there to use as leverage in their negotiations.  
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:21:05
 @wannabeGM I won't agree or disagree with that. However, I think you're letting your emotions regarding Beard to influence you. There is a lot of potential in this draft. 
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:21:16
 @Prye05  @justin_mia I believe the deadline passed on his extension and he will hit RFA. 
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:21:24
 @justin_mia  Exactly. He's underrated and 22 years old. Just let him develop and give him the ball.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:21:57
 @justin_mia  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM What's ibakas value at this moment remember he's still a developing big who probably has 2-3 more levels left.
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:22:42
 @dancassidy35 What emotions? I'm not his friend or family. I'm an OKC fan. He's a special young talent. He needs to stay.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:23:16
 @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM I think Ibaka might be overvalued since his talent relative to his position is much lower than Harden's, but he came in second for DPOY which carries some weight and he is an outlier athletically.  Cashing in on Ibaka makes a lot more sense to me than cashing in on Harden, since Ibaka seems more of a risk to get considerably better or develop than Harden.
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:23:55
 @Lost Ones  @justin_mia  @dancassidy35 I'd definitely prefer trading Ibaka, if you guys are into trading someone. He's always out of position and doesn't rebound.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:24:10
 @justin_mia  @Lost Ones  @wannabeGM I'd agree with that. How big of a package could we then get for Ibaka?
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:24:15
 @wannabeGM  @justin_mia  @dancassidy35 That has to do with experience.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:25:03
 @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM I don't think it's a 'probably' that Ibaka has 2-3 more levels left.  Similar things were said about Tyrus Thomas in Chicago.  Ibaka has some fascinating physical tools but still has a lot of holes in his game - particularly between the ears.  I think we are taking it for granted that he will acquire the awareness, instincts, coordination, etc. required to take those big jumps.  
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:26:26
 @justin_mia  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM but right now ibaka still essentially a developing PF, you really cant put an exact trade value on him. financially he has a value, but if ibaka improves his face-up game as he promised this off-season i think his value as well as value will be larger than hardens. remembers he's a 22 year old pf with an freakish wingspan you cant teach size.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:27:17
 @justin_mia  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM tyrus thomas didn't have the work ethnic or the development staff to push him.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:27:30
 @Lost Ones  @justin_mia  @wannabeGM But there is also the factor of the league having more PF talent right now then SG. Hard to say 
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 17:29:05
 @wannabeGM the only thunder player NOT mentioned in trade talk here is KD
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:29:16
 @dancassidy35  @justin_mia  @wannabeGM Ibakas essentially a PF/C with a developing game as well as build; I fully expect him to take that next step this off-season.
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:29:30
 @dancassidy35  @Lost Ones  @justin_mia KD, Russ, Harden, Ibaka and Collison should be "untouchable".
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:29:35
 @OBoymuzik  @wannabeGM exactly, and the way it should be.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:29:35
 @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM Look, you're speaking in "ifs".  "If" Ibaka improves his face up game.  What do you think the chances are that Ibaka develops into a contributing isolation player offensively?  Keeping in mind that Ibaka had one on one offensive plays only 51 times this season and shot 42.5% on those attempts (Post Up + Isolation).  You're being seduced by athleticism, which is fine, but IMO you have misplaced confidence that a player as raw as Ibaka will completely turn his game upside down.  I think the odds of that are far less than what you do.
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:29:39
 @Lost Ones  @justin_mia  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM That also works in the Thunder's advantage though. Say on a scale of 1-100 if Ibaka's current playing level is a 75 and his potential is 85-90... if the Thunder can get something in the 80-85 range then a trade is actually worth the development risk. If they can get more collective than that obviously it's even better. It's all about risk assessment and value acquisition in the trade. The important question to ask is "Which is more likely to occur?" As in what is more likely to occur Ibaka improving to X pts per game, X rebounds per game, X blks per game... or an alternative. The one you think is more likely to occur is the one you make the trade for.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:30:11
 @wannabeGM  @Lost Ones  @justin_mia I'm a firm believer in that no one should be untouchable if the trade is good enough.
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:30:16
 @OBoymuzik Didn't read anything about Russ yet. I want him to stay, obviously. But before I let go Harden, I'd trade Russ.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:30:48
 @wannabeGM  @OBoymuzik I'd keep Russ first for now
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:31:03
 @wannabeGM  @OBoymuzik I'd keep Russ before Harden for now
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:31:38
 @wannabeGM  @dancassidy35  @Lost Ones  @justin_mia I disagree with the idea that anyone is "untouchable" remember Wilt Chamberlain and Shaq were both traded. It's all just a matter of value. If the Heat offered Wade, Lebron, and Bosh for KD in a vacuum would you say no? Obviously because of financial issues that can't really happen... but the point remains the same.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:32:05
 @justin_mia  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM like he said in his interview, the team has stated they have confidence in him to be able to improve and utilize that area. " only 51 times this season and shot 42.5% on those attempts (Post Up + Isolation). " and that's pretty good for an offensively raw player.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:32:12
Is there a better shooting guard under 30 than Harden? Monta and Gordon are the only ones close and Harden is better and younger than both. Am I missing somebody?
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 17:32:29
 @wannabeGM someone wanted to trade Russ for Rondo a few hours after game 4 of the finals...I'd keep Russ before Harden but obviously want them both
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:32:31
 @wannabeGM  @OBoymuzik russ is 2xs the player harden is foh
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:32:55
 @Jooseppi Harden is nr 3 behind Wade and Kobe. And he should overtake them soon. He needs to stay.
dancassidy35
2012-06-24 17:33:05
 @Lost Ones  @wannabeGM  @OBoymuzik I don't know about twice as much 
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:33:05
 @wannabeGM  @OBoymuzik Were you not here last summer or before the season? Or even after Game 1? Russ trade persist like a nasty rash.
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:33:07
 @Jooseppi Potentially... Paul George though he might be more of a SF but given their line-up he plays SG. 
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:33:12
 @Jooseppi  westbrook is a better shooting guard than harden
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:33:23
 @Prye05  @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM I think we evaluate Ibaka in a weird way sometimes, assigning him potential in areas that he's shown little aptitude for.  Imagining how great Ibaka would be if he could have a 'Bosh like face up game' would be like asking what Harden could be like if he had Russell Westbrook's speed, or David Lee's ambidexterity.   These things are not core pieces of his game, and assigning value to him with those areas in mind seems foolish - you're going to over value him.  Let the other team do that.  Instead we can speak to his current base of skills and go from there.  Imagining how Ibaka could be if he could become a better post defender, a better screener, learn to be more selective when offering help?  Those conditions seem more in line with his talents at the moment, and far less ludicrous to me.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:33:35
 @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM  @OBoymuzik alright.. 1x 
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:33:47
 @Prye05 Not now and not as big of an upside.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:34:09
 @Lost Ones Was your intent to Bayless this up?
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:34:30
 @Jooseppi  @Prye05 Paul george has huge upside, imo more versatility harden.
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:34:56
 @Lost Ones  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM The team states a lot of things.  The team had confidence that Perkins would improve his post up game.  They had confidence that Durant would improve his passing game.  Durant did that, but the improvement wasn't astronomical.  And that's Kevin Durant.  Hypothesizing that Ibaka can become a reliable one on one offensive player requires some suspension of disbelief.  Players don't often make quantum leaps like this.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:34:58
 @Jooseppi no i'm just being truthful he's a more effective shooting guard than harden.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:35:49
 @justin_mia  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM "The team had confidence that Perkins would improve his post up game."well i didn't have that confidence and that's all that matters lol
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:36:07
 @justin_mia  I agree completely with the idea of smaller changes... teaching players shot selection is one of the ways some of the best shooting coaches help players develop... not teaching them better technique. Rebounding coaches work on small things more often than anything. I'm just saying if you're going to look at a person's value you also have to consider other team's idea of potential not necessarily your own. Some players have much more value to other teams. Likewise other teams value some players less. It's all about optimizing value in opinion.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:36:44
 @Lost Ones  @Prye05 In the same way you see Ibaka's 2 or 3 more levels upside or something more down to earth?
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:37:21
 @Prye05 I definitely agree, that comment wasn't directed at you really, just Thunder fans in general 
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:38:40
 @Jooseppi I would argue George has more upside. He needs to add some muscle but given his size and length (6'10" SG) he could arguably add dimensions most other people can't. He's already working on some additional post moves similar to Durant using size more than strength. Also he has great leaping ability making him a strong finisher. So i'm not sure how he doesn't have huge upside. If he can learn to play with his size advantage he can be scary on both ends of the floor. Similar to how KD uses his size.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:39:13
 @Prye05  @Jooseppi not to mention he's a top tier defender.
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:40:00
Didn't take it personally lol. Just thought I'd expand on my thought in case it was somewhat unclear what I was trying to say. After all i have had a few posts so it could be all over the place, don't always have time to read them before i post lol
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:40:44
 @Prye05 Lots of ifs there. Harden is already there with his efficiency. I'd shave my head and run naked down I-35 if George ever reaches that level of impact. He's a SF when they get rid of Granger, anyway. 
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:43:01
 @Jooseppi  @Prye05 Harden is already where? harden still has a ton of issues himself.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:43:37
July 11-17 is amnesty period just in case y'all wanted to know ;)
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:43:56
 @Jooseppi Potential always is IF's. The idea of potential is the top end of the someone's ability. George due to his size has arguably more room to expand than Harden does. Whether or not he gets there is a different question. But when talking about 22 yr old's who knows what can happen.
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 17:44:20
 @Lost Ones Perk, Mike Miller, MWP, and Shawn Marion appreciate the info
justin_mia
2012-06-24 17:44:57
 @Prye05  @Jooseppi I like Paul George.  He fixed a lot in two seasons.  He hit 38% on three pointers, his handle is light years beyond what it was in college already, plus he grew an inch or so since he got drafted.  Very big potential there.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:45:15
 @OBoymuzik #dead hopefully they all get utilized 
qrex
2012-06-24 17:46:33
 @Lost Ones  @OBoymuzik Wasn't Miller rumored to be retiring?
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:46:49
 @justin_mia  @Prye05 I think he has a big upside but not on the level of Harden.  @Lost Ones What do you mean where? I said he's already there in terms of his efficiency. Also there in terms of his impact. He's already a great player. He just had a spectacular season. http://bkref.com/tiny/A4wAW
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 17:46:59
 @qrex  @Lost Ones yeah but if he doesn't he'll probably get amnestied
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:47:05
 @qrex  @OBoymuzik yea, he's thinking about it , same with jones
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:47:18
 @OBoymuzik  @Lost Ones That's at least a reasonable subject, unlike "trading Harden".   Would it get the Thunder under the cap this year if they use the amnesty on Perk? Don't know the exact cash situation. If not, it doesn't really make sense. He's not THAT bad, he's useful against some teams. In the finals, Brooks f'd it up by playing him.
Old Man Game
2012-06-24 17:47:39
 @Prye05  @Jooseppi I do think if you could put Harden's brain in George's body you'd be talking about one of the 4-5 best players in the league. George has the physical tools. But then again it's one thing to have the tools. It's another thing to have the intuitive ability to use what you do have like Harden does. 
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:47:58
 @wannabeGM  @OBoymuzik  @Lost Ones Would still be over the cap.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:48:34
 @Jooseppi  @justin_mia  @Prye05 efficiency with scoring, if that's what you talking about yea hardens more efficient than george right now; but george has the tools and the upside to be an all around player.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:48:35
 @wannabeGM  @OBoymuzik  @Lost Ones Would be under the cap but doesn't make a lot of sense this off-season.
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:48:41
 @wannabeGM  @OBoymuzik  @Lost Ones Amnestying Perk allows OKC to sign Harden and Ibaka at their projected salary (if both take less it's not an issue anyway)... however, a team is still allowed to sign their own players and go over the cap. However, that's on the owners being willing to pay for a title team.
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 17:48:58
 @wannabeGM  @Lost Ones he won't get amnestied unless all elite teams start playing small ball...and it helps his case that he was injured during the finals
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:49:39
 @Lost Ones  @justin_mia  @Prye05 Not just scoring, overall offensive impact. He's a poor defender now but he's getting better. Do you believe Harden is done becoming better as a player?
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:49:50
 @OBoymuzik  @wannabeGM yea, i think its a little to early to talk about amnestying perkins maybe next off-season for sure 
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:51:12
 @Jooseppi  @justin_mia  @Prye05 I believe harden this season was an more efficient version of the player he was all star break and beyond the year before.. if that helps, george has the potential to be beyond that.
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:51:31
 @Jooseppi  @Lost Ones  @justin_mia George is arguably improving at a faster rate... but the question is whether his rate will catch his production up to where Harden is. Also it's not really fair to compare two different styles of play in terms of offensive impact. KD's scoring is different than Lebron's but they both have huge impacts on offense... George scores different than Harden, he also doesn't have the ball in his hands due to how their offense uses him compared to OKC's use of Harden.
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:52:16
 @Lost Ones  @OBoymuzik Well, that's what I was thinking. Bennett will over the tax for Harden and Ibaka anyway. If they could create some cap room by cutting Perk and get somebody else, it would make sense...next year with Harden and Ibaka getting their raises, that chance is gone. But don't know about that. We'd be back to the usual problem: Who? :)
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:52:33
 @Lost Ones  @OBoymuzik "cover"
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:52:44
 @Lost Ones Are you aware how rare it is to get to the level of efficiency Harden got at this season? 
Legendary_dork
2012-06-24 17:54:34
 @OBoymuzik  @Lost Ones my roommate was trying to convince me that ron artest would fit in here yesterday. i wasnt buying it. if i had to choose, id want marion over any of those guys. he has an ugly shot but damn he can rebound and defend like a mofo.
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 17:55:56
 @Legendary_dork   I'd LOVE Marion on this team - with a 1 year contract. Doubt he'd agree. :)
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:56:32
 @Old Man Game  @Jooseppi HAHA that would make fun some fun players... mixing and matching various people. As a Thunder fan I think putting Nick's brain in Ibaka would make for a wonderful player as well.
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:57:50
Did anyone else see the possible rumor of Odom going to Miami after being bought out by Dallas (most likely to happen this week)?? Would be a good fit for them unfortunately for the rest of the league.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:57:51
 @Jooseppi Yes, I am aware, are you also aware of how  atrocious harden's defense is as well as his turnover rate per usage rate is?
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 17:58:27
 @Prye05 yea it will probably happen too bad we dont go after him oh well.
qrex
2012-06-24 17:59:14
 @Prye05 What's Odom's situation if teams don't want his current contract?
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 17:59:45
 @Lost Ones George's turnover rate was .8 lower and his usage 2.3 points lower. That's not a huge gap. Harden assists better, too. http://bkref.com/tiny/qwPKX
supreme35
2012-06-24 17:59:48
 @Prye05 lets hope he doesn't.
Legendary_dork
2012-06-24 17:59:48
 @wannabeGM who would he replace though. cook? 
Prye05
2012-06-24 17:59:59
 @qrex He can be bought out by Dallas for 2 Million or something like that which would make him a FA free to get any deal he wants.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 18:00:10
 @Legendary_dork  @wannabeGM Fisher.
Legendary_dork
2012-06-24 18:00:34
 @Prye05 yes cause miami TOTALLY needs more fucking pieces. uugh.  
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 18:00:42
 @Jooseppi now let's talk about defense, im waiting
Prye05
2012-06-24 18:01:21
 @Lost Ones He would be a decent fit on OKC... too bad he likes big markets since he's married to Khloe. So between OKC and Miami it's hard to see him turning down South Beach. Also he seems like like more Veteran teams as well which makes sense given his age.
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 18:01:31
 @Jooseppi  @Legendary_dork DEFINITELY Fisher.
wannabeGM
2012-06-24 18:02:13
 @Jooseppi  @Legendary_dork I only want 2 people to leave for sure: Fisher and Brooks.
Prye05
2012-06-24 18:02:21
 @Legendary_dork Well they do have this problem that most of their team is either retiring or FA's. Besides the big 3, Chalmers, Norris Cole, and Haslem everyone else is either a FA this year or next or is retiring soon.
Prye05
2012-06-24 18:03:04
 @Jooseppi  @Lost Ones Harden also has the ball more which leads to more assists.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 18:05:47
why did reggie sound so depressed during his interview lol
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 18:06:59
 @Lost Ones Opposing SGs: 48.1 eFG%, 2.7 TO per 48 against George 44.9 eFG%, 2.1 TO per 38 against Harden Opposing SFs: 44.5 eFG%  2.3 TO per 38 against George 47.3 eFG%  2.2 TO per 38 against Harden George has a better overall effect on team defense, but he hasn't defended his man as well as people think.
S4TISF4CTION
2012-06-24 18:07:42
 @Lost Ones He didn't get more of these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4P8GNFukuc
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 18:08:36
 @S4TISF4CTION  @Lost Ones Such a scary/weird handle.
S4TISF4CTION
2012-06-24 18:10:02
 @Jooseppi  @Lost Ones Royal, Cole, Reggie, and Nazr were all on the court. 
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 18:10:31
 @Lost Ones I want to add in any case, George isn't a shooting guard. He plays there because Granger is there. He'll be a 3 most of his career. Harden will be a 2. Which was the original question aside from all the meaningless talk from both of us about what players might become.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 18:11:16
 @S4TISF4CTION  @Lost Ones So was the immortal Troy Murphy.
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 18:11:47
 @Lost Ones I obviously had typo there with 38. it's 48 all the way through there.
Lost Ones
2012-06-24 18:11:47
 @Jooseppi  @S4TISF4CTION LMAO  
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 18:12:57
 @S4TISF4CTION  @Lost Ones If you ever want to see how to not defend a pick and roll....
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 18:17:13
Few hours late but I just finished my viewing of it on ESPN3, but does anybody else enjoy watching England lose on penalties?
Jooseppi
2012-06-24 18:17:42
Few hours late but I just finished my viewing of it on ESPN3, but does anybody else enjoy watching England lose on penalties? Few constants in life, but that's one of them.
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 18:22:00
Miami Heats FA targets:   Steve Nash, Brandon Roy, Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Kaman, Lamar Odom   is this not a little out of control?
jdstorm
2012-06-24 18:22:28
Would anybody mind Amnestying Perk if it meant getting Shawn Marrion at a bargain basement price for the next 3 years
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 18:23:05
 @jdstorm if dallas gets Howard or the lakers improve yes i would mind
jdstorm
2012-06-24 18:25:45
 @OBoymuzik But Assuming Mark Cuban Doesn't change his name to bryce, and the thunder get another big capable of defending bynum (Sergtimus Prime) would you do it?
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 18:27:30
 @jdstorm can you give me some examples of cheap bigs capable of defending bynum
jdstorm
2012-06-24 18:31:08
 @OBoymuzik Serge after a summer of improvement, I cant be bothered looking up names right now but off the top of my head.    the backup C for Toronto (Aaron Grey?)  Omar ashik (not sure how to spell it) Boston's backup C New Orleans backup big who fouled griffin
jdstorm
2012-06-24 18:32:54
 @wannabeGM I like Harden but he's 4. Ginoblli is better. Manu might even be number 1
jdstorm
2012-06-24 18:36:21
 @Prye05  @Old Man Game  @Jooseppi However in most cases the point is moot, because a lack of physical tools is the main reason for growth of BBIQ
Daniel Plainview
2012-06-24 18:38:39
 @jdstorm ID prefer Roy Hibbert
jdstorm
2012-06-24 18:40:58
 @Daniel Plainview You mean 2012 All Star Roy Hibbert, or Former Entertainment 720 employee Roy Hibbert. Because both will command well over 10 million dollars for their services this year.
jdstorm
2012-06-24 18:43:02
 @Lost Ones  @justin_mia  @dancassidy35  @wannabeGM Sure you can. Ask this Question. Where would Ibaka go in this draft, and how much would that pick get on the open market.    I think pick 3 or 5 are the logical spots
jdstorm
2012-06-24 18:50:13
Does Anybody Else Find it Ironic that Washington traded JaVale Mcgee to try and save money, Yet now they have 25 million committed to Nene and Emeka Okafor neither of whom is better then the guy they traded
S4TISF4CTION
2012-06-24 18:51:24
 @jdstorm  @OBoymuzik Boston's backup C ? Greg Stiemsma??
jdstorm
2012-06-24 18:52:40
 @S4TISF4CTION  @OBoymuzik Thats it. He's Solid, plays good defense off the bench
S4TISF4CTION
2012-06-24 18:54:07
 @OBoymuzik Very.
OBoymuzik
2012-06-24 19:05:16
 @jdstorm they brought in Okafor, Ariza and Nene because they're professionals, they were never going to improve with all the knuckleheads they had last year
jdstorm
2012-06-24 19:33:09
 @OBoymuzik I know they needed professionals, but it's just as easy to overpay richard jefferson, or other Non Centers. Professional Backup PG's are also reasonably easy to find.